View Full Version : E60 M5 will have a six speed gearbox available.
Andrei
05-17-2005, 11:10 AM
I guess raving lunatics like me do have influence on BMW ;)
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102375
this made more sense with SMGII on e46
SMGIII(real 7gear sequential btw) on e60 seems to be so good(both comfort wise and performance wise) that manual box for such a car is for a lunatic indeed :p.
Andrei
05-17-2005, 01:09 PM
this made more sense with SMGII on e46
SMGIII(real 7gear sequential btw) on e60 seems to be so good(both comfort wise and performance wise) that manual box for such a car is for a lunatic indeed :p.
True. SMGIII will work better than a human. But then why are dealers unable to keep the Lotus Elise in stock? Not only does the driver need to be intimately involved in driving the thing but they have to fold themselves over twice to get in.
The whole reason for getting an M5 over any AMG car is that the driver is allowed more involvement in the process. It is not a go kart in terms of involvement but it provides just enough fun.
SMGIII (real 7 gear sequential btw) on e60 seems to be so good (both comfort wise and performance wise) that manual box for such a car is for a lunatic indeed :p.You know what's funny? These trick sequential gearboxes are designed to yield lightning-fast upshifts and perfect "heel-and-toe" downshifts. I'm sure there is a significant performance advantage in a race setting.
The irony is, most of the hardcore track-junkie types are opting for the manual versions so they can enjoy one of the sublime pleasures of high-performance driving: the art of the perfectly timed, seamless heel-and-toe downshift. And I bet 99.9% of the SMG cars are being bought by street drivers who will never in their lives push the car to it's limits on the track. Wierd. Most of them would be much better off with a good auto with tiptronic.
In a way, these SMG gearboxes are basically nothing more than socially-acceptible versions of "rice." A useless, expensive mod to make a driver with average (or below average) skill look and feel like a racecar driver.
Emre
Andrei
05-17-2005, 03:39 PM
The irony is, most of the hardcore track-junkie types are opting for the manual versions so they can enjoy one of the sublime pleasures of high-performance driving: the art of the perfectly timed, seamless heel-and-toe downshift.
It's surprising but many M3 drivers on the track do have SMG. Not just beginners. It is hard to judge from our local events, even Trillium chapter attracts only about 5 E46 M3's per event, but at other events there are often at least 10 E46 M3's and many of them do have SMG.
Personally, I always wanted to learn to drive with a real gearbox and getting SMG would have postponed that.
In a way, these SMG gearboxes are basically nothing more than socially-acceptible versions of "rice." A useless, expensive mod to make a driver with average (or below average) skill look and feel like a racecar driver.
Emre
They are far from useless or rice. In europe, I have a few track junkie friends with e46m3, both have SMG gearboxes. No one I know in europe would actually consider a manual gearbox for the track when a sequential equivalent is available.
I am still amazed at Ferrari still offering manual gearboxes on the new F430, and even more amazed that BMW moved to offer an optional Manual transmission on M5.... but I can understand the move. The M5 is a 500hp 1800kg sedan for old farts who still live in the 70s and wouldn't know what to do with a complex sequential gearbox.
I am pretty sure the next M3 will only come in SMG only format. It is clearly superior, you cannot argue about that. Wether you like rowing a stick or not.
I love manual transmission and can recognize the skill required to operate one corectly. But there is more to the story than "rice" and "useless" and "race only".
Andrei
05-17-2005, 04:47 PM
They are far from useless or rice. In europe, I have a few track junkie friends with e46m3, both have SMG gearboxes. No one I know in europe would actually consider a manual gearbox for the track when a sequential equivalent is available.
Do they race?
The only circumstance which would require a proper sequential box would be in a race. And then you would not use any of that silly smg with a hydraulic clutch. Just get a Hewland dog tooth unit that can be shifted without clutch disengagement. No synchros in that thing.
Come this Friday to Tremblant if you can and talk to the PTG guys about their gearboxes. They still use the clutch to get the thing going. They just don't need it for shifting.
In europe track days are very different. It's extremely competetive and everyone races in a way. Helmets aren't even mandatory at monza. (arguably smart). If a car is more performant with X technology, than having X technology is necessary.
I love manual gearboxes and hope to learn how to effectively operate one. I am just "open" to the thought that driving a car competitevely(lapping) with a sequential gearbox could be EVEN more rewarding(atleast AS rewarding).
Anyway, ironically, what I meant on the M5 subject, is that the average owner would get/enjoy more out of the car with the SMGIII, than with the manual gearbox.
Andrei
05-17-2005, 04:56 PM
In europe track days are very different. Everyone races. Helmets aren't even mandatory at monza. (arguably smart)
I bet guys who go through the BMWCC and PCA driving schools and reach an advanced or instructor level would drive circles around guys who just come to track days and let it rip. And they would use a normal 6 speed.
Andrei
05-17-2005, 04:59 PM
Anyway, ironically, what I meant on the M5 subject, is that the average owner would get/enjoy more out of the car with the SMGIII, than with the manual gearbox.
Well, the average American owner of an M5 thinks that doing your own shifting adds to the process.
Keep in mind that M customers are a different breed than the normal car buyer. They do want to drive their cars.
I bet guys who go through the BMWCC and PCA driving schools and reach an advanced or instructor level would drive circles around guys who just come to track days and let it rip. And they would use a normal 6 speed.
Max Biaggi never had any formal motorcycle training. He just showed up one morning at a track and asked to try a bike and beat everyone's time and went one to win a coupole of world championships
Well, the average American owner of an M5 thinks that doing your own shifting adds to the process.
Keep in mind that M customers are a different breed than the normal car buyer. They do want to drive their cars.
that's what I'm trying to say. A manual gearbox does not = driving the car more... it's actually driving the car less. Open your mind :)
BTW I know someone who has a quattroporte(sequential) and will shortly change it for m5(sequential).... he's an old fart.
Andrei
05-17-2005, 05:07 PM
Max Biaggi never had any formal motorcycle training. He just showed up one morning at a track and asked to try a bike and beat everyone's time and went one to win a coupole of world championships
That is a nice legend. I am pretty sure he had learn to ride somewhere from someone who knows. And one guy being a natural does not make every rich guy at the track with a big ego and a fast car any good.
There are a lot of things that that we do on instinct in a car that feel fast but are just plain wrong.
Yeah, but neither can you say that someone on a track with a SMG(you didn't say that, Emre did) is a ricer who doesn't care about driving. SMG was actually specifically designed/offered for track lovers if I recall BMW releases.
I put it this way.
you try both manual and sequential M3 on track
I am sure, that if you are "open" about it, you would enjoy both. Considering you take special pride in knowing how to operate a stick, and hold some reverance for glorious days of yore and the drivers who could operate a stick... in the end you would probably chose the manual.
But me, I hold reverence for the machine, engineering and evolution of driving. I recognize the ability required to operate a stick corectly, but I do not see it as a mandatory operation, especially in the 21st century. I am pretty sure(not 100%) that I would enjoy the sequential more.
Some people drive vintage motorcycle with leather helmets because they say it's a better experience. I'll take a carbon kevlar one, thanks :).... one day stick/sequential analogy will be the same
Yeah, but neither can you say that someone on a track with a SMG (you didn't say that, Emre did) is a ricer who doesn't care about driving.I did NOT say that, nor or imply that in any way. Go back and re-read my original post. I said that for a typically unskilled STREET driver an SMG gearbox is useless rice.
For track guys, the SMG is surely faster and no one would deny that. However, you certainly lose a bit of driving pleasure...which is why you still see so many manual Ferraris and E46 M3's on the track. That's all I said. If you think about it, I'm sure you would agree.
Emre
BMW says that SMG is for enthusiast drivers, and I won't blame them for using any marketing trick they can. SMG is maybe faster than regular tranny, but track peoples go on the track to drive and fun. Blipping the throttle and downshifting is a huge part of the fun. The same way that it can be as much fun trying to go fast with an old 30 (or a 2002) as it can be with a newer e46 M3 GTR. Having the newest toys, doesn't always implies having the more fun.
As a track driver, I want to be the only one in control in the car. I don't want any system or computer over ride my inputs.
No one I know in Europe would actually consider a manual gearbox for the track when a sequential equivalent is available.No offense, but that's a little silly. Being in Europe or being in America isn't the issue. If you approach lapping as a highly competitive "race" to be "won" at all costs, then of course you'll be drawn to technologies that make driving easier. But not everyone approaches lapping that way. Most of us consider it a challenging, engaging hobby. We drive because it's fun.
Besides, unless you're an extraordinarily skilled driver, the fact that you're driving an SMG vs. a manual tranny is hardly the deciding factor in whether you're fast or slow! An SMG might make a difference of maybe a tenth of a second over the course of a whole lap. It's not like the manual tranny is the major bottleneck.
I am still amazed at Ferrari still offering manual gearboxes on the new F430Not everyone has delusions of being Schumacher. Have you ever driven a manual Ferrari? I've driven quite a few, and most were manual. The pleasure of clicking through the gears on an F355 Challenge car is hard to describe. Not everyone is as obsessed with technology as you might think.
The M5 is a 500hp 1800kg sedan for old farts who still live in the 70s and wouldn't know what to do with a complex sequential gearbox.Come on now. An SMG is a hell of a lot easier to drive quickly than a manual. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people who opt for a manual are already pretty good drivers and don't want to give up the tactile pleasure of shifting well. It's not like you need some special skill to drive a "complex sequantial gearbox."
But me, I hold reverence for the machine, engineering and evolution of driving. I recognize the ability required to operate a stick correctly, but I do not see it as a mandatory operation, especially in the 21st century. I am pretty sure (not 100%) that I would enjoy the sequential more.That's fair. Some people are techno nuts and some people are old school. No one here is saying a manual is "mandatory." But you also shouldn't go overboard and make it sound like the SMG is mandatory for track use. It's not.
Personally, I think it's great that BMW, Ferrari, and others are giving owners a choice.
Emre
Do they race?
The only circumstance which would require a proper sequential box would be in a race. And then you would not use any of that silly smg with a hydraulic clutch. Just get a Hewland dog tooth unit that can be shifted without clutch disengagement. No synchros in that thing.Exactly. You don't see SMG in real racecars. If you're really that crazy about racing and winning, you'll use a dog-box tranny and not screw around with electronically controlled hydraulic clutches.
Emre
As a track driver, I want to be the only one in control in the car. I don't want any system or computer over ride my inputs.
As good as you may be, your inputs may be innacurate. I am not argueing the pleasure of driving a manual gearbox. I understand perfectly the pleasure of driving a manual gearbox, I blip the throttle everywhere I go, revmatch, try to take correct trajactories etc... even on the streets! I never meant you should drive 2002 with a sequential gearbox.
I'm trying to make you people realize that it can be as much rewarding (and even more rewarding if you are open enough) to drive a sequential gearbox. It's not like it's an auto-pilot. Your inputs still need to be as flawless as before, it's just that you have an operation that has been simplified/removed to leave your focus to concentrate on the REAL driving. And that's what I'm trying to say, rowing a stick is not mandatory to enjoy driving to it's fullest extent. This is not an ABS, TCS, or a control of any sort.
Whether race team use a variant or another is irrelevant. the principle is the same.
Andrei
05-17-2005, 07:10 PM
But me, I hold reverence for the machine, engineering and evolution of driving. I recognize the ability required to operate a stick corectly, but I do not see it as a mandatory operation, especially in the 21st century. I am pretty sure(not 100%) that I would enjoy the sequential more.
Think of it this way. There are people who are into martial arts. They spend tens of thousands of dollars on Japanese swords. As a fighting device it loses out to the AK-47 with a bayonet big time. It is more expensive, too. But it makes the guy practicing with one feel good about himself.
Same with many of us and manual trannies. The guys demanding a stick shift on the M5 don't want the most effective car in the world. M5 already loses to anything lighter (a Carrera S will destroy it). They just want to feel good driving the thing.
A pro racer's job is not to feel good about himself in a race car. His job is to finish first doing whatever it takes within the rules. His enjoyment of the sport is purely coincidental. If someone was faster but always grumpy about the experience he would get the job instead.
Many F1 drivers do not enjoy some of the aspects of modern F1 cars in terms of driving fun. But they get on with the job. But I as an amateur can bitch and moan about whatever I want in my car. I pay the bills. And if I and a few people like me say we want a stick shift BMW should listen. We do have a choice in our buying decisions.
No offense, but that's a little silly. Being in Europe or being in America isn't the issue. If you approach lapping as a highly competitive "race" to be "won" at all costs, then of course you'll be drawn to technologies that make driving easier. But not everyone approaches lapping that way. Most of us consider it a challenging, engaging hobby. We drive because it's fun.
Most people I know take lapping TOO seriously in Europe. that wasn't my point. My point was that there are very good drivers that prefer sequential gearboxes to manual ones and get a better experience out of it. I do not agree(and never said) that someone is a better driver because he PREFERS one or another. I have seen in europe a preference for sequential.
Besides, unless you're an extraordinarily skilled driver, the fact that you're driving an SMG vs. a manual tranny is hardly the deciding factor in whether you're fast or slow! An SMG might make a difference of maybe a tenth of a second over the course of a whole lap. It's not like the manual tranny is the major bottleneck.
I don't think SMG is the deciding factor in anything. It's a matter of preference if you are not a professional race driver.
Not everyone has delusions of being Schumacher. Have you ever driven a manual Ferrari? I've driven quite a few, and most were manual. The pleasure of clicking through the gears on an F355 Challenge car is hard to describe. Not everyone is as obsessed with technology as you might think.
Come on, It's not about delusions. If I ever buy a SMG car you are going to say I'm delusional and obsessed about technology? I'm obsessed about driving.
Come on now. An SMG is a hell of a lot easier to drive quickly than a manual. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people who opt for a manual are already pretty good drivers and don't want to give up the tactile pleasure of shifting well. It's not like you need some special skill to drive a "complex sequantial gearbox."
99% of people that own these cars (Bmws, Ferraris, Porsches, etc) are old farts who can't care less(hence the success of AMG). and about 1% of that 1% actually goes on a track. Real enthusiasts get their "driving experience" from the perception they have of cars, driving and competition. Most of these people relate to the 70s-80s. Sequential gearboxes are outside of their perception. They would rather fumble with a manual gearbox than even consider a sequential. You will agree with me that revmatching, heel-toeing and whatnot out of a corner with a 500hp car is not for everyone. (delusional is implying that every single M5 owner can manage that). that's what I meant, not every car nut is a good driver, you cannot deny that.
That's fair. Some people are techno nuts and some people are old school. No one here is saying a manual is "mandatory." But you also shouldn't go overboard and make it sound like the SMG is mandatory for track use. It's not.
Personally, I think it's great that BMW, Ferrari, and others are giving owners a choice.
Emre
I never said smg is mandatory. I contemplate the possibility that it could be more rewarding, even to an experienced driver. I don't know how long offering manual gearboxes on some car will make sense. 500hp is the power F1 cars had not long ago...
Think of it this way. There are people who are into martial arts. They spend tens of thousands of dollars on Japanese swords. As a fighting device it loses out to the AK-47 with a bayonet big time. It is more expensive, too. But it makes the guy practicing with one feel good about himself.
Same with many of us and manual trannies. The guys demanding a stick shift on the M5 don't want the most effective car in the world. M5 already loses to anything lighter (a Carrera S will destroy it). They just want to feel good driving the thing.
A pro racer's job is not to feel good about himself in a race car. His job is to finish first doing whatever it takes within the rules. His enjoyment of the sport is purely coincidental. If someone was faster but always grumpy about the experience he would get the job instead.
Many F1 drivers do not enjoy some of the aspects of modern F1 cars in terms of driving fun. But they get on with the job. But I as an amateur can bitch and moan about whatever I want in my car. I pay the bills. And if I and a few people like me say we want a stick shift BMW should listen. We do have a choice in our buying decisions.
We are more or less saying the same thing.
Personally I am not an M5 guy, whether it's manual or sequential I can't care less I will never buy such a car. To me it makes more sense sequential as I see it as a big heavy comfy sporty sedan.
People say that STI, integra type-R and stuff like that is for kids. I see myself 60-70 and still rather drive those than an M5. :p
Not everyone has delusions of being Schumacher. Have you ever driven a manual Ferrari? I've driven quite a few, and most were manual. The pleasure of clicking through the gears on an F355 Challenge car is hard to describe. Not everyone is as obsessed with technology as you might think.Come on, It's not about delusions. If I ever buy a SMG car you are going to say I'm delusional and obsessed about technology? I'm obsessed about driving.I was referring to your statement that you are "amazed at Ferrari still offering manual gearboxes on the new F430." Why be amazed? Not everyone is drawn to Ferrari because they have dreams of being racecar drivers and want the ultimate, techno racecar experience. Most of the Ferrari owners I know are 100% the opposite of that: what draws them to the brand is not the high technology, but the rich history. In that sense, clicking through a notchy open-gate shifter is part of the whole appeal.
not every car nut is a good driver, you cannot deny that.No argument here! In fact, I think that's one major reason why SMG gearboxes will really take off in the future. With an SMG, an unskilled driver can unlock a lot more of a car's potential a lot quicker. Add traction control, stability management, adaptive suspension, etc. and that 500 hp monster becomes a pussycat. And it's far easier to open your pocketbook than admit you're underskilled and start the long process of building your chops.
I agree with you that there is a tiny population of very highly skilled drivers for whom the SMG opens up new avenues of performance. People whose lap times are noticably lenthened by the fraction of a second it takes to shift gears. But you have to admit that this group of drivers likely makes up the tiniest proportion of SMG buyers.
Emre
Personally I am not an M5 guy, whether it's manual or sequential I can't care less I will never buy such a car.It depends on which M5 we're talking about. I'm crazy about the original E28 M5 and I'd love to own one. It's sort of a slightly grown-up E30 M3 and still very much a sportscar. Even the E34 M5 was nice. But the newer ones are just too big, too heavy, and too luxury-oriented. I'm not sure I see the point...but then again I'm not exactly the target demographic :p
People say that STI, integra type-R and stuff like that is for kids. I see myself 60-70 and still rather drive those than an M5. :pTell me about it. Everyone thinks I'm crazy for choosing an Evo over a more sensible, grown-up car. I'd still rather have an R33 Skyline GT-R than a 996 TT. I guess I should lay off the PlayStation for a while :D
Emre
flukester
05-17-2005, 08:50 PM
... I guess I should lay off the PlayStation for a while :D
Emre
Yup! And go study for that exam that's coming!!!!
ahah
antoine
Andrei
05-17-2005, 11:29 PM
Tell me about it. Everyone thinks I'm crazy for choosing an Evo over a more sensible, grown-up car. I'd still rather have an R33 Skyline GT-R than a 996 TT. I guess I should lay off the PlayStation for a while :D
And stop watching Japanese videos ;)
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