Question about instructing.

[Lee]

This question is aimed at everyone: students, instructors and trainees.

Please let us know what should be the best quality an instructor should have. And what is the worst one. You can talk from experience or from your own judgement.

Just to start. I would say that above all, the instructor should succeed making the student feel comfortable/good in the track environment. If the student is more relax, he will absorb all that technical training way more easy. Emotions such as fear can blur the senses and the judgement.

Perhaps the worst, would be an instructor who teaches by the book, without adapting to the student's need and behaviour.

[Karim E36]

I am not speaking from experience but I think a good instructor should be able to listen to the student and "read" him in order to adapt his instruction.

I think it is very important to adapt to the student. Not everybody is the same. Some students will have a hard time with a concept and not another.

Patience and respect are also important ;)

[Lee]

It would also be very interesting to hear from the students and know what was their worst experience with an instructor. I also had my bad experiences with an instructor who show up on the false grid 10 minutes late every time. Damn... But I also had very good ones.

[blacksheep]

needs a good sense of observation in order to pick out mistakes and bad habits

shouldn't talk down to the student or bark orders

should explain CLEARLY what they mean when they say something, unlike a certain *cough* chief *cough* instructor who would say "boy, you're really sliding the car a LOT" but would never explain if that was BAD :D

[Andre]

For the most part I've had good instructors. The ones that stood out we're good communicators and we're able to highlight what I did right and what needed work.

The less helpful ones didn't give me much feedback at all and left me scratching my head and in a world of self-analysis.

Some were also less sympathetic to the machinery than others. If I exit the last corner before the straight and the inside front wheel is spinning madly and my exit speed is 5km/h higher, who gives a damn? Yes, it may matter if you're racing and you need to have higher terminal trap speeds but this is DE. Save the equipment, drive for the whole weekend.

I also think that sometimes Instructors should hold students to higher standards. That is to say, once the basics are down, I think it's time to work out all the little bugs, one by one. I don't know if other people feel this way but if I'm sloppy, tell me! If my turn in point or my line through a corner is inconsistent, tell me! Don't sugar coat it, just say: "you need to do this, this and this". I won't be cross, in fact, I'll be grateful. The more specific one can be, the better.

I realise there something to be said for letting a driver mature at his own rate and letting him "connect the dots" for himself and this is something that takes time. As long as I'm not going around in circles for no apparent reason, and the session has a clear identifiable obective, I'm happy.

I hope this helps,
~andre~

[yield]

I really approve this,

I want a coach that will tell me the truth... don't try to be too freendly when you not need to and that the need is to be telling the truth. :)


I also think that sometimes Instructors should hold students to higher standards. That is to say, once the basics are down, I think it's time to work out all the little bugs, one by one. I don't know if other people feel this way but if I'm sloppy, tell me! If my turn in point or my line through a corner is inconsistent, tell me! Don't sugar coat it, just say: "you need to do this, this and this". I won't be cross, in fact, I'll be grateful. The more specific one can be, the better.

~andre~

[Lee]

I really approve this,

I want a coach that will tell me the truth... don't try to be too freendly when you not need to and that the need is to be telling the truth. :)

When everyone starts playing piano, the last thing a novice wants to hear is that he sucks. Which is why thru some encouragement and good advices, a bad student becomes better. Isn't that why people go to drivers schools too?

Event a novice driver needs encouragement and the "truth" is not necessarely always what he needs. Let's say that it is okay to congratulate on the good things done, and work on the rest, one thing at a time. The list of things to practice is very long and going to major points, one by one is the way. And in between, the instructor can add other smaller things like hand position, peripheral vision or else.

Remember that there are not so many balls that you can catch at one. It is better to throw fewer balls and make sure they are all catched.

[bmwqc]

Please let us know what should be the best quality an instructor should have. And what is the worst one. You can talk from experience or from your own judgement.


We should not ignore the use (and importance) of having proper teaching equipment (or lack thereof). The best instructor cannot do an adequate teaching job if he/she cannot be heard without having to yell out, and the student having to strain to hear, or forced to drive with the face visor in the lifted position in order to hear the instructor (and get more than an earful of windblast in the process), ultimately resulting in a decrease in concentration on the driving aspect. Incidently, it is unsafe to drive with the visor lifted up (better without the visor removed completely than to drive with it raised).

All instructors should be required by the club to purchase 2-way communicators. This is not a big investment. Consider it as a tool of the trade. From my personal observation, at least 50% of the instructors rely on the "unplugged" method. Whay is that the case in this day and age? What is a couple hundred bucks for a communicator set which would last a couple years, considering the few hundreds saved in track fees at each event? (Remember, instructors don't have to pay!) With what the students pay out, they deserve to get the best possible driving education. Without a tool to provide a proper means of communication for a large percentage of current instructors, this goal cannot be achieved.

[blacksheep]

good point Henry

[yield]

Lee.. je ne dit pas d'être bitchy avec l'étudiant. Je sais que '' par exemple '' I suck... Mais quand je dit de dire la verité je veux la verité au niveau de mes capacitées présentes et de ce que l'instructeur voit dans les capacitées de l'éleve et non pas de me faire dire que je suis pas J. Villeneuve... Ca je le sais.. lol...

C'est ce que je voulais dire...;)

[Turbo_Bimmer]

Instructors (very few I hope) should be more aware of their schedule. I had to drive back twice to the paddock to get my instructor who completly forgot me TWICE during the same weekend. He was working on his car...

Instructors should be more consistent in their comments. For example, the same instructor... tells me not to follow too close not to intimidate the driver in front of me, then later in the same day, a slower car who was slow to give the "point by" was in front of me, my instructor told me "go get him!" "go on his bumper!" ????
heuu mister, you said not to do that this morning...:confused:

[Karin]

Well, as a fairly new enthousiast, I have a lot to say in this thread. First of all, there should be ONE instructor per student. This is being done most of the time but it has happened to me that halfway through the day, my instructor changed, without explanation, without the former giving feedback, without talking to the latter to say where I was at, resulting in a lot of redundance.

Second, I think there should be a "novice" line at all tracks. Since instructors all have their little different ways of taking a corner, they can see the difference. But a novice has sooooo many other things to assimilate, s/he cannot see the subtle differences. Therefore, in the beginning, instructors shouldn't say "I turn in late here" or "here, you can single or double apex", tell the student what to do, what the (standard) best line is. S/he can figure out the personalized way a little later, after all the other basic points are mastered.

Third, as was already mentioned, an instructor should see and comply to the student's style, all the while being cool, in control and reassuring. Real communication has to be going on. Mutual listening and taking into consideration! Instructors, no arrogance. Think back to when you were just starting out.

Fourth, as a teacher, I know there's a certain way to say to the student "you suck" without him wanting to walk out. Diplomacy is the key word. Yes, negative things have to be ironed out, but the bad has to be mixed in with the good. No sugarcoating the bad, clear instructions as to how to correct the bad and congratulating on the good is the way to go.

And, when instructing, forget we're friends!!! ;)
Thank you for listening,
Karin

[Karin]

Some were also less sympathetic to the machinery than others.

I would like to add to this quote that instructors should know the difference between RWD, FWD and AWD cars. Personally, I've had instructors who have never driven a front wheel drive car. And I've had comments like "turn in, the rear will rotate and you can power out." Well, my rear doesn't rotate (Lee, insert perverted comment here;) ) and I cannot power out... and would like to find out the alternative to this maneuver.

In short, I'd like my instructor to adapt not only to me, but to what I'm driving.

Karin

[Lee]

" Well, my rear doesn't rotate (Lee, insert perverted comment here;) ) and I cannot power out...
Karin

Does swaying counts as rotating? :p

[Lee]

All instructors should be required by the club to purchase 2-way communicators. This is not a big investment. Consider it as a tool of the trade. From my personal observation, at least 50% of the instructors rely on the "unplugged" method.

I do not know if there is a rule regarding ownership of a communicator system. I believe it is highly recommanded that instructors buy a set. At $150usd it is indeed a very usefull tool, that allows a much better communication. It allows to clearly say a few words without detracting the student. Not having to yell also permits to keep the student much calmer. The other downside of instructors not owning a communicator is that they have the bad tendency to use their hands to indicate what to do. So, instead of keeping his eyes far ahead, the student must look at the instructor's hands. Not safe and certainly not clear communication.

As great as they are, those communicators have a short life span though. The cords to the earpiece will break sooner than expected, they require thorough charging to be efficient. I believe that most instructors from our chapter own such a device, and perhaps if an instructor doesn't use one, he should be reminded by the chief-instructor and student to buy one for better clarity of instruction.

[Emre]

As an instructor, something I always try to keep in mind is what the different expectations are for students in the novice, intermediate, advanced, and advanced-solo groups. An advanced driver should not be just an intermediate driver going at a faster pace, for example. There are different skills we expect from people at different levels. I think instruction should reflect this.

Instructors should have overarching goals for their students in the various groups. Novice students need to learn the basics of turning in, late apex, not lifting in corners, proper body positioning, etc. Running the "best" line is not a top priority. Intermediate students need to learn how to be smooth and consistent, look up, run a good line, and start trying different lines through corners where they have a choice (e.g., single late apex vs. single early apex vs. classic double apex for the carrousel at Tremblant). Advanced students must learn to be VERY consistent, "read" the track, modify their lines at will, and run well off-line without panic or danger. (I would add that advanced drivers should also be able to run "off-track" without panic or danger...if I had my way, this would be part of the curriculum in the advanced group.)

In addition to these general goals, instructors and students should define specific goals for each session. I start each session with a brief chat so we can agree on what we're going to work on for a specific session. For novice students, it might be as simple as hand positioning. For advanced students, it's frequently running off-line or fine-tuning the approach to a specific corner.

I think a lot of the complaints we hear from students who don't gel well with their instructors has to do with these basic things. If an instructor doesn't have a set of goals for each group and doesn't sit down with each student to outline specific goals for the session (or day), then we're off on the wrong foot.

Emre

[Karin]

Novice students need to learn the basics of turning in, late apex, not lifting in corners, proper body positioning, etc. Running the "best" line is not a top priority.
But there is a line to be followed, or the student will start off with bad habits. What I meant was the student has to turn in anyways, might as well learn the correct way right off the bat. Of course there are a million other more important things to concentrate on before getting to that. It's just that some instructors jump steps. That's all :)

Intermediate students need to learn how to be smooth and consistent...

A curriculum has to be clearly defined for all learner levels and should be written down, so that all present and future instructors can follow exactly the same path and have a very good starting point from which to evaluate individual students.

[SpeedTT]

If an instructor doesn't have a set of goals for each group and doesn't sit down with each student to outline specific goals for the session (or day), then we're off on the wrong foot.

Emre
De là la grande importance d'une discussion franche et honête entre le pilote et son instructeur AVANT d'aller sur la piste. Ce qu'a écrit Emre est vrai ( en ce qui a trait aux habiletés qui devraient être développées par le pilote et ce, selon son niveau). Or comme beaucoup le savent certaines techniques sont plus facile pour pour certains que d'autres et les forces de chacuns diffèrent énormément. Ainsi la discussion franche a laquelle je faisait référence permettera d'établir entre l'instructeur et son élève, les objectifs de la session sur piste. Certains voulant travailler sur 2 objectifs et d'autres travailler un seul.
Des objectifs partages entre les deux parties permettrons de créer un meilleur climat favorable à l'apprentissage.

[Lee]

A curriculum has to be clearly defined for all learner levels and should be written down, so that all present and future instructors can follow exactly the same path and have a very good starting point from which to evaluate individual students.

Hi Karin. Such a curicullum is what I am currently working on, with Cherif's and Emre's feedbacks. Basically it clearly highlights was should be taught in a specific group, what is expected from the student to get to the next group, and what is expected from the instructor. It is a pretty basic and simple two page form that will be very hepfull to standardize drivers' education, and instructors' method. It is also obviously up to the chief-instructor to gather feedbacks on instructors so that he makes sure that students get the best training.

[Andrei]

But there is a line to be followed, or the student will start off with bad habits. What I meant was the student has to turn in anyways, might as well learn the correct way right off the bat.

You are mistaking the "best" line with the school line.
The school line is meant to be the safest way around the track even if the student starts hammering the gas pedal pretty well. Emre did imply that a novice should be taught that line at all times. An instructor stroking his/her ego by talking about some fancy racing line with a novice is counterproductive.

The "best" line is extremely subjective due to huge variation of cars and their level of preparation. If we all drove the same car then there would be a definite perfect line. Also sometimes the fastest way around the track opens one up for a passing move in a race. As many instructors are also club racers they prefer the "racing" line. But that kind of stuff should only be discussed with advanced students.

[Emre]

But there is a line to be followed, or the student will start off with bad habits. What I meant was the student has to turn in anyways, might as well learn the correct way right off the bat.I didn't mean that we should not teach novices a specific line around the track. What I meant was that we should not necessarily teach the "best" line (i.e., the racing line, the quickest line). The quickest way around many corners often involves turning in early and apexing early. The racing line reflects that.

I don't think it's always productive (or safe) to teach novices the "correct" line. We should be satisfied if they take an appropriate line that reinforces the concepts of braking in a straight line, turning in late, and apexing late. The students should learn an approach to driving quickly...not necessarily obsess over following the racing line as closely as possible. Chapters that over-emphasize one specific line (I don't want to name names!) frequently find their drivers getting into trouble when they're forced to deviate.

Emre

[Lee]

You are mistaking the "best" line with the school line.
The school line is meant to be the safest way around the track even if the student starts hammering the gas pedal pretty well.

Interestingly, If a corner has two or three ways, then during the same weekend I would teach all of them, one by one, and ask how the student feels. Even with a novice student.

Carroussel in LCMT is a nice exemple. There is the double apex line, the late apex and the early apex. In theory, the late apex is supposed to be the safest line (late apex), but it can be quite scary going in the marbles. I do not think that being a school line or a racing line has anything to do. Also, showing only one line without accounting FWD/RWD dynamic is not serving the student. Per exemple, a FWD will enter corner #1 and bit more early than a RWD. The instructor must have that feel too of what is better for the car and the driver.

Teaching only "one" line has resulted in the past in some of the advanced drivers cutting-off other students after a pass to get back on "the" line, right before a corner, simply because driving anything but "the" line has not be teached. Which is why, in the future, a student will have to show he is able to drive every corner off-line in order to be signed-off for solo driving.

The same applies with the gear changes. Corner 10 in LCMT. It is possible to brake and downshift before 10, or only brake, take the corner with more momentum and downshift before 11. Some students are more comfortable with one or the other. I think that the good instructor is the one who can show the several options and then discuss what is best.

[Andrei]

Lee,

What you say is correct but for someone who is driving a car on a track for the first time it is all too much.
Connecting the dots in a "monkey see, monkey do" way is more important at that point. Once that is done then the things that you are talking about become relevant.
Sometimes a student would be ready for such instruction on the second day of the event. Sometimes not. This is why we have human instructors and not tape players in the cars.

[blacksheep]

(I would add that advanced drivers should also be able to run "off-track" without panic or danger...if I had my way, this would be part of the curriculum in the advanced group.)did you really mean "off track" there or was it a typing mistake for "off-line"?

I think Karin's input as a teacher is super valuable here

[Emre]

did you really mean "off track" there or was it a typing mistake for "off-line"?No, I meant "off-track" (as in, over the turtles and onto the grass). The vast majority of accidents on the track are due to the driver freaking out when they run out of room at track out and wrenching the wheel to get back onto the track surface. Just look at the tire marks at Corner 5 (exit of the esses) at Tremblant!

Advanced drivers need to learn how to react when they unintentionally track out onto the grass. There are safe ways to teach and practice this. We worked on this at the Glen with the BMW CCA--Boston Chapter and it worked like a charm. You pick one or two corners to practice for a session then slowly get closer and closer to the turtles. You start by running up over the turtles, then putting 2-wheels off onto the grass, then all 4-wheels. It can be very safe if everyone is on-board.

Obviously, you need to warn the corner workers so they don't black flag everyone! Also, the usual "4-wheels off" rule needs to be suspended for those corners in those sessions. It takes some coordination, but it can work.

Emre

[Lee]

No, I meant "off-track"
Emre

This low speed exercise is already in the new curiculum. The principle is approved. Now we have to work the formalities to practice it. BTW, by low speed, we mean very low speed, and in safe areas.

[Emre]

This low speed exercise is already in the new curiculum. The principle is approved.BTW, Lee. What's all this about a new curriculum? And who has "approved" it? It's strange that the club directors were not informed about this initiative. I would have liked to be involved in this process.

Emre

[Karin]

Andrei was right, I was confusing "best line" with "school line". Personally, I don't think that several options should be presented to the student. Not at novice level, anyway. Novice students are very unsure of themselves and need to know they're doing something right. There are so many things to think of - hands, feet, eyes, body, breaking, shifting, not running out of track, not crashing, etc. - students don't have time to think about which line they feel more comfortable with. They don't know which line they feel more comfortable with.

Everything Lee said is right on, but not at novice level. Drivers who pass and rush to get back "on line" and cut other drivers either took the pass too late or are not looking in their mirrors, both aspects should have been reviewed before the "how to actually pass" part of the lesson.

Hence the need for a standard curriculum - what to teach to whom and when is a student ready to advance.

[blacksheep]

No, I meant "off-track" (as in, over the turtles and onto the grass).ah, ok!

we'll need to find some really low turtles if I have to do that part cause my car doesn't like going over turtles very much. At shannonville I slid in some coolant laid down by a 928 and went over some of their turtles (aka ski jumps) ... I dented my oil pan and crushed part of my header :(

[Lee]

BTW, Lee. What's all this about a new curriculum? And who has "approved" it? It's strange that the club directors were not informed about this initiative. I would have liked to be involved in this process.

Emre

You are/were involved in the process. And so is Cherif. Don't you remember receiving a preliminary copy a few weeks ago? Those were only the outlines and it got precised after.

[Andrei]

Also, the usual "4-wheels off" rule needs to be suspended for those corners in those sessions.

The modified rule should be front wheels in front of the rear axle at all times. Otherwise a black flag :)

[Andre]

I do not know if there is a rule regarding ownership of a communicator system. I believe it is highly recommanded that instructors buy a set. At $150usd it is indeed a very usefull tool, that allows a much better communication. It allows to clearly say a few words without detracting the student. Not having to yell also permits to keep the student much calmer. The other downside of instructors not owning a communicator is that they have the bad tendency to use their hands to indicate what to do. So, instead of keeping his eyes far ahead, the student must look at the instructor's hands. Not safe and certainly not clear communication.

As great as they are, those communicators have a short life span though. The cords to the earpiece will break sooner than expected, they require thorough charging to be efficient. I believe that most instructors from our chapter own such a device, and perhaps if an instructor doesn't use one, he should be reminded by the chief-instructor and student to buy one for better clarity of instruction.

Keep in mind that there are different types of learners, some are visual some auditory and some are everything and anything in between. Some will learn by showing, some will be by doing, others will benefit from little diagrams. etc etc. As a teacher, I need to remind myself constantly to vary my approaches as the method I will be naturally inclined to adopt to teach something will be the one that I would prefer as a student.
Not everyone is wired like me.:D

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "plugged method", as I find voices inside my head distracting. I'd much rather use a hand signal that I can pick up with my peripheral vision while I continue to look well ahead. I find that I process the information more quickly and there's no chance of a techni... tech.. (sorry WHAT?) technical malfunction. But again, this is just me, everyone is likely to be different. The instructor and the student should agree to a method that works for the both of them and use it.

~a~

[Lee]

One very safe place to practice 4 wheel off is right at the kink, after the Bridge turn. There is wide open space on the left. If the driver over corrects in the grass, he will spin for sure. And there are no turtles on the left hand side of the track.

[Lee]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "plugged method", as I find voices inside my head distracting. I'd much rather use a hand signal that I can pick up with my peripheral vision while I continue to look well ahead. I find that I process the information more quickly and there's no chance of a techni... tech.. (sorry WHAT?) technical malfunction. But again, this is just me, everyone is likely to be different. The instructor and the student should agree to a method that works for the both of them and use it.

~a~

If you get distracted by "the voice in our helmet" is perhaps because the instructor speaks too much. Wich often happens. Usually, only a few words are required (too hot, too early, track-out, turn-in, great, look in your mirrors). There is no time between corners to elaborate on a long discussion. That longer explanation will usually happen in the pits or in the paddocks. I feel that looking far ahead takes enough concentration, that having to check for hands at the limit of the peripheral vision can be an annoyance for most people.

[Emre]

You are/were involved in the process. And so is Cherif. Don't you remember receiving a preliminary copy a few weeks ago?I must have missed that e-mail. Anyway, I'd love to see a draft of what you guys have been working on. I have quite a few ideas myself.

Emre

[Emre]

we'll need to find some really low turtles if I have to do that part cause my car doesn't like going over turtles very much.As Lee mentioned, there are some corners that would be safer than others for this exercise. Many have no turtles at all (exit of Corner 5, exit of the carrousel, after Bridge Turn, etc.). Besides, speeds would be very low.

Emre

[Andre]

Another topic that has come up for discussion is "Reference points".
Some instructors are for them, others were encouraging me to use "The Force" (this is how it was put to me). The idea being that your internal chronometers should instinctively know that you need to innitiate a certain action at a given point in time... The logic behind this was that they had seen too many accidents caused by (usually) advanced drivers who failed to take into consideration a change in the track conditions and drove strictly according to their reference points. Having not adapted to the new conditions, they promptly went off. The solution to the problem was to do away with reference points... (I don't know if that would have been my first choice)

On a side note: Will there be a suggested reading list to go along with the curriculum. If so, I have a book to suggest: "A Twist of the Wrist" by Keith Code. It's about driving motorcycles but it's very well written and does an excellent job of breaking down the act of driving on a racetrack and very much applicable to what we do.

~a~

[nscirocco]

I think it would be good to tell the instructors that when they take a novice as a passenger with them to drive "perfectly" .. i mean, slow it down and explain what they're doing instead of just having a fast lapping session. Then for the more advanced students it's good to go out with an instructor that's driving fast, sliding around a bit .. gets you used to the feelings.

I like to be told what i'm doing wrong right away so that i can improve on the next lap. If the instructor doesn't say anything then i'll assume i'm doing ok. I like being pushed and have learnt the most when driving with instructors that were racers and weren't scared. I've had an instructor that was too conservative and i didn't learn much .. i was too far into my comfort zone. It must be very hard for instructors to get into someone else's car that they've never met and trust them with their lives, but some have an easier time at it than others and the confidence in the ability of the student really shows (.. not sure if what i'm saying makes sense .. but when i'm driving with my mom in the car, i can't drive fast no matter what .. i'll sense the aura of panic ;) )

-nigel.

[Lee]

You are entirely right when you mention that when the instructor takes his/her student out in his/her own car, the ride should be done perfectly. It is what is expected from an instructor. An instructor who is sloppy is not fit to be instructing yet. Many students will drive 1/10th the potential of their car and think they have hit the roof. Having a drive with the instructor, even in a different car shows how much more potential a vehicule can have. Not to mention that most students will totally freak-out when their own car starts sliding, then going with an instructor who slides the car, flies over the turtles and really works the dynamics of the car, will definitely show how far a car can go and what can be expected from the student on the long term.

To bring my own experience, I usually give a few "slow" lapses in my old racecar to show the line and how it can be done if driven by the book. Then, when the student gets it, I can stretch a bit more and even though I do not go all out for safety reasons, I usually give rides that bring smiles... I have yet to find a student that got scared by sliding mostly every corner of LCMT. I usually finish the session with a cool down talk,mentionning that I do not expect the same pace from the student, but want precision and constance.

Lee

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/2002%20folder/20050813-BMWatTremblant-0423.jpg

[Andrei]

Is that Marc-Andre behind you, Lee?

[Lee]

Yup. The lady pleaser himself. I think he just bought the car from Fabio.

[Cherif]

I think that this is great thread - I have been passively reading and actively taking notes. I would love to hear more input from other members. So please share your thoughts no matter how trivial you think they are... All input is valuable input.

Thanks,
Cherif

[Lee]

Hi Cherif. Welcome back from (perhaps) another trip around the world. To add another grain of salt, I would suggest that, on a yearly basis, the instructors from one chapter get updated by their chief-instructors. Even the best instructors sometime take bad habits, and the rookies could learn from the shared experience. By this Spring, Cherif, Emre and I will have a document ready, highlighting what shall be teached at every level and what the instructor shall expect from a student before he gets to the next level.

Personalized instruction is great as it suits ever student's need, but sometimes some content gets lost. I sometimes get asked by signed-off advanced drivers how to do "heel and toe". Which is a technique that an advanced driver should master before being signed-off.

I would be glad to hear from members here what they think should be the required knowledge before being an intermediate, then an advanced and finally a solo driver. Is it okay to allow an intermediate driver go without instructor as is often the case with some other clubs?

[bmwqc]

Yup. The lady pleaser himself. I think he just bought the car from Fabio.

Lee,

Just out of curiosity, did you just passed the Type R down the back-straight, or is he inching up to you towards the bridge?

[Nano]

some instructors have been better than others...

The reason it was such a nice experience in some cases was that the instructor slowly pushed me to a pace that was “perfect”. It was fast enough to keep me extremely concentrated and focused, but at the same time it was always within my comfort zone. I really felt he trusted me and I really felt he knew what he was doing… the experience was great and the difference from the first to the last session was incredible. It was a pleasure to drive the car on the track and feel the pace increase as I was being "tuned".

The problem in other cases was that I felt the instructor couldn't figure out what I was doing... his only concern was HIS comfort zone. Felt like he was more intimidated being a passenger than me being a driver. That was not very inspiring and made everything feel as if I would crash any second, lol. Everytime I increased pace(it comes natural if you go too slow) I was showered with critics... Except for a few bits, I don't feel I learned anything.

*edited, for correctness :)

[Andre]

Another question that comes to mind is that if we get signed off by another BMW chapter, does that signed off "status" carry over to this chapter?

~a~

[blacksheep]

... if we get signed off by another BMW chapter, does that signed off "status" carry over to this chapter?What I've noticed is that if you're advanced enough to be signed off by one chapter, your instructor should immediately notice that you're competent enough to go solo. So, they will usually sign you off after one or two sessions.

I don't understand why some people attach so much importance to being "signed off" at DE events. I'm not pointing a finger at you Andre, this is just something I've noticed in general.

When we do DE events we're there to learn and there's no better way to learn than having a trained observer in the passenger seat. When an instructor offers to "sign me off" I always ask them to ride with me every session anyway (if they don't mind). Last year at Tremblant my instructor made a very important observation on the second last session of a 2-day event and helped me correct a bad habit I had.

[Emre]

Another question that comes to mind is that if we get signed off by another BMW chapter, does that signed off "status" carry over to this chapter?The short answer is no.

The long answer is each chapter has their own instructors, develops their own training style, has their own philosophy, and runs different circuits. Driving that would be considered "Good enough" to be signed off by one chapter is not necessarily going to be viewed the same way by another chapter.

As an example, our club wants to make sure a driver is comfortable dealing with traffic, isn't fazed by driving off-line, and can consistently drive at the limit before we would consider them a candidate for solo. But we don't care how "fast" they are. I can think of a few clubs (one chapter of the PCA in particular) who pretty much only look at how quick a student makes it around the track. If you're fast and don't make any huge mistakes, then you're OK for sign off (even if you haven't demonstrated comfort driving off-line and you're not at the limit).

Most students who meet our criteria would probably also meet the criteria for that PCA chapter I alluded to. But there's no guarantee.

Emre

[SpeedTT]

Jusqu'a présent je trouve intéressant la façon avec laquelle le sujet concernant les instructeurs est abordé. J'aimerais maintenant y mettre mon grain de sel. Ainsi j'ai remarqué que certains précisent qu'il y a des instructeurs meilleurs que d'autres. Je suis en accord avec cette affirmation tout en y apportant une certaine réserve. L'enseignement d'habileté pratique comme la conduite automobile s'apparente aux habiletés requises pour devenir un bon coach ( pas en mentor) en entreprise. Il faut tout d'abord une connaissance approfondie du sujet à la fois en théorie et en pratique et AUSSI et SURTOUT des habiletés de communicateurs. Or les excellent communicateurs ne courrrent pas les rues.

Sans entrer dans tous les détais de la pédagogie avec les adultes ( l'andragogie) il faut que l'instructeurs
1- Maîtrise les différentes façons de s'adresser à un élève et selon des principes aussi simple que de savoir comment enseigner à des visuels versus des auditifs
2- Applique les principes de base en coaching
3- Sache comment donner son message selon les principes de pédagogie ( par exemple:
1- du connu à l'inconnu
2- du simple au complexe
3- du facile au difficile
4- du concret à l'abstrait)


Maintenant revenons au début de mes propos lorsque j'émettais une réserve face aux commentaires à l'effet que certains instructeurs sont meilleurs que d'autres. À la lumière de mes affirmations on peut maintenant dire qu'il y a des instructeurs qui de "façon naturelle, et intuitive" l'on plus que d'autres. Or ces principes s'enseignent, et quiconque désire s'améliorer pourra y arriver et ce en respectant certains principes de base.

J'ai offert mes services de spécialiste en pédagogie à Cherif afin d'améliorer non pas la qualité de la formation dont témoigne les instructeurs mais l'homogénité de la qualité de formation entre les instructeurs. Maintenant reste a savoir comment tout cela pourra s'organiser.

[Andre]

I don't understand why some people attach so much importance to being "signed off" at DE events. I'm not pointing a finger at you Andre, this is just something I've noticed in general.

When we do DE events we're there to learn and there's no better way to learn than having a trained observer in the passenger seat. When an instructor offers to "sign me off" I always ask them to ride with me every session anyway (if they don't mind). Last year at Tremblant my instructor made a very important observation on the second last session of a 2-day event and helped me correct a bad habit I had.

I couldn't agree with you more the more feedback the better; I did the very same thing as you when I was at Tremblant in early July with the Trillium club. I'm just new to the club and curious as to how everything works.

~a~

[Lee]

Lee,

Just out of curiosity, did you just passed the Type R down the back-straight, or is he inching up to you towards the bridge?

I do not specifically remember what happened this session, but Marc-André and myself have a long history of chasing each other. I you look closely at the picture, there is a passenger in my car. Perhaps my student. So, chances are I was not pushing too much for safety reasons.

[Nano]

I don't understand why some people attach so much importance to being "signed off" at DE events. I'm not pointing a finger at you Andre, this is just something I've noticed in general.

being signed off is the ultimate test and reward :D

Driving school is not only about driving technique, it's also about self control, discipline, judgement, trust, responsability and a series of other traits and stuff. Being signed off is(should be) like passing the last test.

Personally I can't wait... not for the "driving solo" per se, but for being recognized as "able to".

Then it's back at technique :)