Hypothetical question...

[Andre]

I was wondering what would happen if one was at a DE event and was the victim of an on track incident.
If I do something dumb, and go off, I assume the consequences of my actions and I deal with it but say it wasn't my fault.

Say I'm out on the track minding my own business and doing everything I should be doing. Unbeknownst to me, someone comes up from behind and for reason "X" (brain fade, broken brake line, control arm failure, general stupidity etc.) they completely mess up their braking and plow right into the back of my car.

Everyone is okay but there is damage to my car.

I know this shouldn't happen and that there are many precautions one can take but what if it did. Lets say that that one person is clearly at fault.

Who is responsible for what damages?

~andre~

[blacksheep]

whenever I set wheel on a track, I keep my fingers crossed hoping that question remains "hypothetical"

[Lee]

Well, in the past decade, I have yet to see an incident between two cars. Not to say that it will never happen, it did happened once in another club event, but chances are that if you trash your beloved car, it will be because of your own mistake. The club's event insurance covers all organizers, workers and participant for liability, bodily harm and loss of revenue. Your car is on your own private insurance. If you are to attend our "educational driving events", you should let your insurer know and have him tell you if you are covered or not. If you are indeed covered, have him put it in writing. If you are not, well, at least you know it now. Remember that insurers will try to find any clue to make your claim void. If you do not tell them how you use your car, it might be the perfect excuse for them not to pay.

In the past, most cars involved in a track incident were covered by the owner's insurance, even in the US. But, it has been seen that a few owners had their car towed outside of the track and then called the police... Or, some dedicated track cars had their stickers removed, street seats reinstalled and all trace of trackyness removed before the adjuster was called...

I think that everyone starts understanding why some drivers have dedicated track cars being brought to the track on trailers. The car is built to perform with track settings, and if an "incident" happens, well, no need to worry about insurance. A $10k e30 track car might not be as fast as a souped-up $90k e46 M3, but if ou "loose" your e30, then you will not hit yourself for days and days. It is often said that you should not track a car that you cannot afford to loose. Obviously, we are a speaking at a higher group level where the driver is near the limit. Most of the times, in the non-soloed groups, the instructor knows when to tame the student to avoid any "annoying" situations...

Anyway, one of the reasons why we put the emphasis on driver education and not just on "free lapping", is that your insurance will still cover you. No stop watch allowed, emphasis on safety and a strong structure is all for your benefit.

[Andrei]

Most of the "bad" incidents I have witnessed happened in the higher groups. But I did see some screwups in lower groups, too. Especially in bad weather. But they were at tracks that don't forgive mistakes. Mosport and Watkins Glen. Tremblant often lets you get away with dumb things. Just be extra careful in 6 and exiting 7 in rain.

As for the question of liability then if it happens that somebody does plow into your car you do have a right to claim damages. But I believe you can't hold the organizers or the track responsible because you have signed the waiver when entering the facility.
Only in the case of clear negligence you can sue the organizers. For example, they knowingly allowed a car with an obvious mechanical fault on the track.

In general it is better to just talk to the responsible party and see if things can be settled before lawyers get involved. Most of the time it will happen that way.

Also, listen to Lee's advice. Don't track a car that would ruin you financially if something bad happens to it.

[SpeedTT]

Maintenant il serait intéressant de connaître le nom des compagnies d'assurances avec lesquels les membres on signalé leur intérêt a faire du "driving education" et qui n'ont pas eu de problèmes. Partageons l'information afin d'être mieux assurés...

[Andre]

Thank you for the clarification; that's pretty much what I expected.

In most cases I would think it would be your own fault but funny things have been known to happen. For example, I know of someone who had a ball joint snap on a new control arm. One can prepare and put most chances on one's side but you cannot prepare against everything. (Well... you could but that would mean not driving ;) )

~a~

[Lee]

For example, I know of someone who had a ball joint snap on a new control arm. ~a~

I believe it is still the driver's fault, in a way. Lemforder control arms do not break unless the car has been tracked for a couple of years. Cheap knock-offs will, even when brand new.

[snowmanmtl]

You're pretty much on your own after you sign the two waivers( track & club). You are responsible for any damage you do to the track though. Insurance is a bit of a grey area. Tell them you are driving on a track and they may cancel your policy ( happened to me twice). Don't tell them and you they may not cover you. DE insurance can be had but, very expensive with a 15% deductible. Emperingham sells it out of T.O. , I think.
If your Ins. company tells you are covered for DE make sure you get it in writing.

[Lee]

So you made two claims after trashing your P-car on a track? He, he. Don't they teach you how to drive at Rennsport's events? Perhaps it is time you see the light and join the BMW club. Our instructors do not pay at events, that is because they work hard and teach students to bring their car back home in one unscratched functionning piece... :D

[snowmanmtl]

No, No Lee. Read again. I had two companies ( Chubb and General Accident) either cancel or refuse to re insure just because I asked about D.E.. The value of the car obviously played a role in their decision. At the time I had eight vehicles insured with General and they didn't care if they lost the business.
Join the BMW Club? I'm already a member as I am with PBOC, PCA, Mazda Club, Chin, Nasa and probably a few I can remember. Yes, the instructors drive for free and get free lapping on Fri. but that is not a local chapter problem. It is a BMW Club problem and I really believe it is WRONG. The bases for this may be that the instructors for BMW call it "work", while other clubs call it "giving back" to the club which gave them the education in the first place.

[snowmanmtl]

Just to clarify. I've never had an " Incident " at the Track. Not that it can't or never will happen but I've had very good instruction, thanks.
In order , Peter Carroll, Emmanuel Annasis, Richard Spenard.

[Lee]

Hmmm... I believe that the smoothest approch with the insurance companies would be to ask your broker what would be the outcome "if" you were to attend a driver education event, highlighting the "educative" side (including an instructor by the student's side at all time) and the non-competitive environment. It is obvious that as soon as the broker will hear "race track", he will freak out. So, perhaps "closed course" would be a term that suits better. Interestingly, a "closed course" iis a much safer environment than the street: no one will cut you, run a red light, t-bone you after missing a stop sign, just to name a few. But hey, it seems that for many peoples, the words "race track" equals high danger level... which is exactly the opposite with most drivers schools.

[snowmanmtl]

Problem is not the Broker. You need written confirmation from the insurer. In both cases I sent them the first few pages of the Rennsport manual. You know the stuff that says closed, safe environment, no timing, no competition, instructor in car etc. etc.. Insurance companies know the story.

[Emre]

Lets say that that one person is clearly at fault...Who is responsible for what damages?Hi, Andre.

Others seem to know more about the legal +/- insurance aspects of this scenario.

But if there is an incident on track where a club racer or DE participant who is clearly at fault causes damage to another (innocent) car, the expectation is that the "at fault" driver would at least make an attempt to set things straight. If I do something stupid on track and damage someone else's car, I would make an honest attempt to pay. FWIW, this is the main reason why many of us are very uneasy driving borrowed cars.

Emre

[Phil]

Join the BMW Club? I'm already a member as I am with PBOC, PCA, Mazda Club, Chin, Nasa and probably a few I can remember. Yes, the instructors drive for free and get free lapping on Fri. but that is not a local chapter problem. It is a BMW Club problem and I really believe it is WRONG. The bases for this may be that the instructors for BMW call it "work", while other clubs call it "giving back" to the club which gave them the education in the first place.

I have been a high performance driving instructor for twenty or so years. I've instructed for BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, COM, CASC, etc., etc--dozens of organizations throughout the Northeast. The calibre and dedication of the instructors in the BMW clubs is the best and second to none. Because they do not pay for track time, BMW instructors understand they must earn, by quality and dedicated instruction, their track time. And that is exactly what the instructor corps does or you are out. In contrast, at schools where even partial fees for tracktime exist, instructors feel they have greater rights to track use. In such instances, there is an unfortunate blurring of roles to the detriment of the students and the quality of the school. I know this from substantial experience including PCA chapter events, unfortunately.

Consequently, it would be a grave mistake if our chapter reversed the well-established tradition among BMW clubs to wave track fees for instructors. We owe our students and chapter members the best and should not short change them. Their fun and safety come first.

Phil

[snowmanmtl]

Having to teach( 2 - 3 students) to get free lapping day and track time

=

Better Instructors


Rather than

Teaching to return something to a club that has given you the skills. Pay 50%, have one student only, and get equal track time.


I have seen both in practice and I guess we can agree to disagree.

[Lee]

Hmmm... Having only one student per instructor means that in a 100 students event, if you remove the 25 signed-off students, you remain with 75 students who require an instructor. That involves finding 75 qualified instructors. 75 qualified instructors are not easy to find and we would ending up with 50 qualified instructors and perhaps 25 average, unqualified ones. Certainly not the way our club does things. Not because a student is signed-off means he is qualified to instruct, which is perhaps the norm with other clubs (obviously not with Rennsport). When an instructors knows he is at an event to instruct, things are clear. If he paid 50%, the boundary between pleasure and business start being blurred...

Having witnessed events from different clubs (Audi, PCA, BMW), I can assure you that BMW clubs have the Ultimates instructors and the Ultimate method. And that is without being partial.:rolleyes:

[snowmanmtl]

If you don't want to blur the line and want to continue to call it "work" then why do the Instructors drive at all? Make four student run groups and pay the instructors a fair wage for their " work" rather than have them take up a whole run group. Not to mention the whole extra free day. 120 students paying full price would easily be able to cover the cost to pay 30 " qualified " instructors. The instructors could then afford to pay for their own lapping day.

[Emre]

In contrast, at schools where even partial fees for tracktime exist, instructors feel they have greater rights to track use. In such instances, there is an unfortunate blurring of roles to the detriment of the students and the quality of the school. I know this from substantial experience including PCA chapter events, unfortunately.That's a bıg +1 right there.


Consequently, it would be a grave mistake if our chapter reversed the well-established tradition among BMW clubs to wave track fees for instructors. We owe our students and chapter members the best and should not short change them. Their fun and safety come first.I couldn't agree more.

Emre

[Emre]

I have seen both in practice and I guess we can agree to disagree.I guess so. Personally, I've slowly stopped attending PCA events in the Northeast because I don't like how things are run. Too sloppy. Too may incidents. Too few dedicated instructors. Too much pressure to sign everyone off ASAP. (In fairness, Rennsport may be an exception...I can't say because I've never run with them.)

In my experience, BMW CCA and BMW CC events the safest. I've found they have the "best" instructors (i.e., most dedicated, most skilled on average) and a philosophy I'm most comfortable with. That's why I've dedicated my limited track time to BMW events. As always, YMMV.

Emre

[Lee]

If you don't want to blur the line and want to continue to call it "work" then why do the Instructors drive at all? Make four student run groups and pay the instructors a fair wage for their " work" rather than have them take up a whole run group. Not to mention the whole extra free day. 120 students paying full price would easily be able to cover the cost to pay 30 " qualified " instructors. The instructors could then afford to pay for their own lapping day.

Hmmm... Since the beggining, I have yet to find a reason why you have been insisting on having instructors pay. PCA is the only car club that does it. Perhaps it is an indication that it might not be the ideal choice.

I don't remember instructors having to pay anything when instructing for Ferrari, Audi or BMW Club events. Students are also extremely gratefull for the time we devote to coaching them. On-track and off-track. Ask PCA instructors if they'd rather not pay when instructing, I am sure I already know the answer.

[snowmanmtl]

O.K. let's agree to disagree. Next topic. "we are the safest, best run" etc. etc.. I hate when people start this stuff. Emre you stated before that you stand on your record. Last event that BMW quebec ran solo at Tremblant was in 2004 July, I think. It was raining for about half of the two day event. Good reason to drive slow and stay in control. Do you have a record of the # of incidents( wheels off , spinning) of lose of control at this event? Can you recall which side passing was allowed between bridge and Namerow? On the front straight? Was there some indecision, confusion and discussion between the principles at the driver's meeting? Was it clear to all by the end of the meeting on the first day?
On the second day?

[blacksheep]

It was raining for about half of the two day event.it was raining extremely hard for the duration of the event, there were maybe 1 or 2 "somewhat dry" sessions.

Good reason to drive slow and stay in control.Debateable. I know personally I was pushing as much as I dared.

Can you recall which side passing was allowed between bridge and Namerow?as far as I remember, passing is not allowed there at BMW club DE's

On the front straight?On the right side only

Was there some indecision, confusion and discussion between the principles at the driver's meeting? Was it clear to all by the end of the meeting on the first day?
On the second day?As a student in C group, it was pretty clear after the driver's meeting, and it was perfectly clear after the 1st session because my instructor went over the passing zones with me as we drove through them.

I don't agree with the philathrophic idea of making instructors pay for track time as a way of "giving back to the club". The instructors paid for their DE same as everyone else, why should they pay to teach? Do university professors have to pay tuition?

If there was a special "instructor's program" where instructors-in-training got free or cheap track time, then yes ... they would have to "give back" since the club subsidized their training. But that's not the case.

[Emre]

Emre you stated before that you stand on your record.Yes. From the beginning, our philosophy has been that the #1 priority is safety. We are not teaching people to race. We're teaching them to become better drivers and be safer on the street. Our other priorities are to be inclusive and to have fun. We do what we can to run a tight ship and meet our goals. Feedback from students, instructors, and corner workers indicates that we've been successful so far.



Last event that BMW quebec ran solo at Tremblant was in 2004 July, I think.Our last Tremblant event was BAB-7 last summer. I don't see why running a solo event vs. a collaborative one makes a difference in this respect. We only collaborate with people who share our goals.



It was raining for about half of the two day event. Good reason to drive slow and stay in control.As I recall, it was pissing rain the whole time except for the last 2 sessions of the event. Experience shows us that there are FAR more spins and offs in the wet than in the dry. So I'm not sure I see where you're going with this.

Incidentally, you might have noticed that almost everyone drives in the wet at our events...unlike many PCA events I've participated in! My last event at the Glen was with NER. When it started raining there were exactly THREE cars on the track: me, an E30 M3, and an E36 M3. Interestingly, all 3 of us were BMW CCA instructors. Perhaps the predilection to sit out wet sessions accounts for the low incident rate amongst PCA drivers in such conditions ;)



Do you have a record of the # of incidents( wheels off , spinning) of lose of control at this event?Yes, we keep a log of all incidents as we are VERY strict in enforcing our "4 wheels off" rule.



Can you recall which side passing was allowed between bridge and Namerow? On the front straight? Was there some indecision, confusion and discussion between the principles at the driver's meeting? Was it clear to all by the end of the meeting on the first day?As a rule, we would prefer to let drivers exercise their brains and select how and when to let a quicker car past. This generally works well in the advanced groups but is sometimes problemmatic in lower groups. At the first sign that there was some difficulty, we held an instructor's meeting and defined standards for the straights you mentioned.

Emre

[Lee]

As far as passing zones are concerned, here is how our chapter operates: a driver who thinks he is skilled enough to pass will proceed off-line. That means that the slower vehicule stays on its usual line. If the passing vehicule doesn't think there is enough time to pass, then stay back. If the passing driver think he is good enough to do a late pass, then it should be done off-line, in the interior of the corner, certainly not by cutting-off the passed driver when trying to go back on-line. In no occasion, two cars shall be entering the corner at the same time. A late pass is not passing in a corner... It is the instructor's task to monitor those conditions. Until a driver is not able to drive off-line in every corner, he will not be signed-off. Instructors will occasionally be proceeding in the corner two-up even though it is not usually tolerated. I collected a few black flags doing so. But usually instructors are more skilled and have a better judgement than students. I even once had to pass an instructor in the inside in a spec-Miata going down corner two as he suddenly braked at the crest of the hill?! This is a very unusual event that only happened to avoid an accident.

Specifically for Tremblant, the club's policy for passing zones is as follow:

- from the Kink (#15) to #1 (on the right)
- from #5 to #6 (on the left)
- from #6 to #7 (on the right) - very limited space
- from #7 to Carroussel (on the right)
- from Carroussel to #10 (on the right),
- from the kink after the Bridge turn (#13) to Namerow (#14) (on the right).

Depending on weather conditions and group abilities, a couple of passing zones will be removed. Any 4-wheel-off requires an mandatory one-on-one discussion in the pit (between instructor and student) - right after the incident - and to report to the chief-instructor after the session. Thanks to the fabulous work of the flaggers headed by Louise Côté, we are able to make sure nobody goes thru the net. The discussion in the pit is based on the comprehension of what caused the 4-wheel-off and how not to repeat. If the driver did not understand the cause and the solution, it is up to the instructor to judge if the driver is fit for continuing the session or for having a long discussion on driving technique and car dynamics. In the car, the instructor is the boss, and their is no grey zone here. Safety first.

Also, looking in the rear view mirrors to check for faster cars wanting to pass is a "skill" our BMW club teaches, and a rule we strictly enforce. I have never be kept behind a slower car for more than a quarter-lap at a BMW event. At any event when I have to stay behind a slower car for a whole lap or even a whole session, it usually involves a P-car. A 35 year old 150HP car being stalled by a newer 400HP car... It looks like using the mirror is not always a "skill" teached by other clubs, or the big ego is blocking off the rear view...

Also, as Emre mentionned, it is also my experience that as soon as the track gets wet, drivers at PCA events usually stay in the paddocks. Even during the 2004 SummerHeat wet event, I had to convince a few PCA members (Nick Monaco among a few) to proceed on the track, and thanks to Bob Rouleau's help, they were thankfull after the event. On that same event, 100% of other drivers were on the track. Driving in the wet is exactly as driving in the dry, just exert more smoothness. I strongly believe that any driver who is afraid of the wet should not consider himself a good driver yet. During that wet weekend, we were so used to almost non-existent friction that we were flying when it got dry. Faster than we have ever been as we got used to staying at the limit of adhesion. Driving is all about friction and smoothness. The car being a negligeable parameter.