GRM Tire Tests

[Phil]

FYI. Got this off of a racing board.

For the June 2009 issue. Tires were tested in 15 inch sizes on a Honda Civic.

Here is a summary of times from worst to first.

6th - Falken RT 615 Mean time: 35.302 Sec Quick time 35.125 Sec.
5th - Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec Mean time: 35.209 sec. Quick time 35.061
4th -Toyo Proxes R1R Mean time: 34.522 sec Quick Time 34.452 sec
3rd- Bridgestone RE-01R Mean time: 34.478 sec Quick Time 34.430 sec.
2nd- Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 Mean time: 34.266 Quick time 34.238 sec.
1st - Kumho ECSTA XS Mean time :34.170 Quick Time 34.030 sec.

All tires were shaved to 3/32 nd and test performed on an Autocross set up. http://images.bimmerforums.com/vb3images/buttons/quote.gif (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=16163773)

[homer09]

link please?

[Phil]

I haven't found the full article on line yet.

But its in the June issue of GRM, GrassRoots Motorsports.

Phil

[homer09]

I haven't found the full article on line yet.

But its in the June issue of GRM, GrassRoots Motorsports.

Phil


yeah did my own searching and thats all i came up with also. no other info besides peoples e-pinions.

so i guess this throws into question my decision to buy the re-11 this week. there doesnt seem to be a reason to go with the stones over the XS. im jsut wondering about d-d performance (rain, noise, wear).

[Phil]

GRM made their own job easy. They shaved all the tires and ran dry tests on a slalom course. The results rank tires by speed only. Nevertheless, they didn't include the fastest tires in their tests either where the Hoosiers are still king.

You are asking a far more complex question. How much do you want to weigh fast dry lap times in your equation? What about the other factors you mention, especially longevity and wet weather performance?

It gets tricky.

[sebdavid]

And what about performance when they aren't shaved? For me, for example, this test is not really valid, as I don't use those tires in a competitive setting and would like to get some life out of them while using them on the street, in the wet (on and off track), etc...

From your question homer09, it seems like you would be in the same situation, so not much use giving a lot of weight to this article at this point.

We'll have to wait for the whole article to come out, I guess.

[homer09]

you guys are making valid points. except for phil's comment about hoosiers... i dont see why a pure R-compound would be put up against street tires? we all know what the result will be...

im looking for an auto-x street tire in 15" (the size they tested). i will probably end up running in a class that allows r-compound tires, but i still choose to run a street tire (read wear rating of at least 140) simply for my wallet's sake and because i am not quick enough to merit true racing tires anyway.

however, these tires will also have to double up for daily driving. this is why other things like wear, wet performance and comfort have an impact.

i know for sure the bridgestone will be comfortable, and it will have good wet performance judging by the tread pattern, brand rep and the re-01r. the kumho is more of a gamble, not too much info out there. however the MX was quite a tire and the XS is the evolution of it. if we assume that it has retained the MX's characterstics, it should be a very wear/heat resistant tire.

right now on tire rack, the bridgestone comes in at 120$ minus a 100$ mail in rebate = 95$/tire. the kumho is simply 91$. now factor in the hassle of a mail-in rebate plus potential problems of cross-border ordering....

in the end, i think i will be satisfied with either tire. so it only makes sense to go with the path of least resistance.

[Andrei]

For Auto-x if you care about budget get tires that fit your spending limits and can be driven on the street. Even in this test the performance difference is not that great. The difference in drivers will still be the deciding factor.

For my track stuff I am staying with the same tire (in my case Michelin PSC) to better judge my progress. I know I can get stickier stuff but I will not learn as much that way.

So if you want to judge your personal progress better I'd recommend staying on the same rubber. Unless you are already so good and are competing for championships. Then you gotta spend to win.

[Emre]

6th - Falken RT 615 Mean time: 35.302 Sec Quick time 35.125 Sec.
5th - Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec Mean time: 35.209 sec. Quick time 35.061
4th -Toyo Proxes R1R Mean time: 34.522 sec Quick Time 34.452 sec
3rd- Bridgestone RE-01R Mean time: 34.478 sec Quick Time 34.430 sec.
2nd- Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 Mean time: 34.266 Quick time 34.238 sec.
1st - Kumho ECSTA XS Mean time :34.170 Quick Time 34.030 sec.Unfortunately for E30 drivers, NONE of those are available in 225/45-R15 or 225/50-R15 sizes.

I just ordered the "latest and greatest" street tire from TireRack. The new Hankook Ventus RS-3. It's supposed to offer 30% more dry grip than the older Ventus RS-2 plus have stiffer side-walls, which was the big complaint with the RS-2. And it's available in 225/45-R15.

When I say "latest" I mean it! Accordning to TireRack, they arrived in the USA today. The first shipment to TireRack warehouses is currently en route and expected to arrive tomorrow. My tires should be here by the end of the week.

I'll let you guys know how I like them as soon as they're on the car.

[Gregster]

I use those all season made in taiwan tires.. for 35$ each you can't go wrong.

[Phil]

I use those all season made in taiwan tires.. for 35$ each you can't go wrong.

Yup.

Perfect for St. Eustache.

Burp.

[Gregster]

Yup.

Perfect for St. Eustache.

Burp.


Exactly my point :)

[sebdavid]

New tires are coming out waaay too fast for me to keep track of them.

I'll just be happy with my Dunlop Star Spec and ignore whatever reviews there are about the other ones, until the time comes to buy again.

[homer09]

Unfortunately for E30 drivers, NONE of those are available in 225/45-R15 or 225/50-R15 sizes.

I just ordered the "latest and greatest" street tire from TireRack. The new Hankook Ventus RS-3. It's supposed to offer 30% more dry grip than the older Ventus RS-2 plus have stiffer side-walls, which was the big complaint with the RS-2. And it's available in 225/45-R15.

When I say "latest" I mean it! Accordning to TireRack, they arrived in the USA today. The first shipment to TireRack warehouses is currently en route and expected to arrive tomorrow. My tires should be here by the end of the week.

I'll let you guys know how I like them as soon as they're on the car.


oh dam, thanks for the heads up! didnt knwo the rs-3 was already available.

i believe the toyo is available in a desirable 225/45-15.

i was gonna go with 205/50-15 but the rs-3 is shuffling the cards again!

[Emre]

oh dam, thanks for the heads up! didnt know the rs-3 was already available.According to the guy I spoke with at TireRack, they arrived in the USA yesterday and are hitting the TireRack warehouses today. Should start shipping to customers tomorrow. I haven't seen them anywhere else yet.


i believe the toyo is available in a desirable 225/45-15.I just checked the Toyo website and you are correct. But I haven't seen that size listed at any of the on-line retailers I use.


i was gonna go with 205/50-15 but the rs-3 is shuffling the cards again!Personally, I've always used 225/50-R15 on 15x7" wheels. It's almost exactly the same overall diameter as the 195/65-R14 tires my car came with as stock (within 0.5%). With my suspension, they fit without any modification to the body except for some slight fender rolling in the rear (just folding up the inner lip a tiny bit...nothing visible from the outside).

Lots of folks seem to prefer 225/45-R15 tires, which have a significantly shorter overall diameter (on the order of 4% smaller). I've never tried that size before. But when I saw the R-S3's were available, I just couldn't resist.

[homer09]

im going to be running 8" wheels, so a 225 would be much better. what offset are your wheels by the way? im more afraid of clearance with the front strut than with the fenders.

225/50 is the ideal size, but the choice isnt always there. 205/50 is the same overall diameter as 225/45.

cost is now a factor. 91$ (XS) vs 124$ is significant. i think i may still go with the XS for this year. and when they wear out i will work out whats best. especially since my suspension is stock for the moment and wont allow me to play with camber.

[Emre]

im going to be running 8" wheels, so a 225 would be much better. what offset are your wheels by the way? im more afraid of clearance with the front strut than with the fenders.I'm using Team Dynamics Racing 1.2 wheels from Bimmerworld. Offset is 25. I've had no problems with rubbing at all...even at maximum lock. Keep in mind that I'm running the Turner J-Stock suspension, which is not as low as some others on the market.


225/50 is the ideal size, but the choice isnt always there. 205/50 is the same overall diameter as 225/45.That's why I've always used 225/50 as well. But a lot of guys prefer 225/45 despite the fact that the overall diameter is smaller. They claim better transient response with the shorter sidewalls, plus advantages related to the slightly shorter gearing and slightly lower ride height.


cost is now a factor. 91$ (XS) vs 124$ is significant. i think i may still go with the XS for this year. and when they wear out i will work out whats best. especially since my suspension is stock for the moment and wont allow me to play with camber.You can also get the Ventus R-S2 for around $99 each (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Hankook&model=Ventus+R-S2). Maybe prices will drop a bit now that the R-S3's are in and the R-S2's are out of production. TireRack often dumps older tires at "clearance sale" rates when newer models come in.

[homer09]

You can also get the Ventus R-S2 for around $99 each (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Hankook&model=Ventus+R-S2). Maybe prices will drop a bit now that the R-S3's are in and the R-S2's are out of production. TireRack often dumps older tires at "clearance sale" rates when newer models come in.

i would get the XS way before the outdated R-S2.

[Emre]

i would get the XS way before the outdated R-S2.From what I can tell, the only 15" fitment for the Kumho ECSTA XS is a 205/50-R15.

Personally, I'd rather have a 225-width tire...especially if I were running wheels that are 8" wide (as you are). Even if the ECSTA XS is a bit better than the Ventus R-S2 is it so much better that it would be worth losing a full 20mm of tread width?

The big failing of the R-S2 seems to be sidewall stiffness. Despite the soft sidewalls, it's been the darling of GRM and others in past tests. Dry grip is supposed to be comparable to the Azenis RT-615 but without getting greasy on the track (the biggest failing of the RT-615) and simultaneously offering much better wet performance. The only complaint has been lack of crispness at turn-in, which is related to the soft sidewalls. Seems like a terrific all-around package for a New England daily-driver that also sees a few weekends of track use.

[homer09]

Even if the ECSTA XS is a bit better than the Ventus R-S2 is it so much better that it would be worth losing a full 20mm of tread width?

yes. ... aparently

guys have tried it on the auto-x scene, and they prefered sacrificing section width for a better compound/sidewall tire. 20mm isnt that big, and it doesnt translate to 10% more grip.

[blacksheep]

But a lot of guys prefer 225/45 despite the fact that the overall diameter is smaller.it just looks more loco ... :D

http://www.tuningfever.fr/pics-max-7215-160617-bmw-7-series-lowrider.jpg

[Emre]

yo das how we roll.

I need to install a rollbar in my new cabrio so I can take it out onto the track. Safety first!

http://www.mhtwheels.com/images/gallery/30inDonk.jpg

[ScardE30]

Those XS looks so good on my car :cool:

Just installed them last week 245/40R17 all corner on Kosei K1.

So far they stick like glue can't wait to track them.

[Andrei]

http://maistrenko.org/pics/bling4wheeler.jpg

Yo!

Anyone knows where to get replacement tires for this one?

[Gregster]

Argh.. its everyday at work all over again :(

Actually I am starting to like the 24s on Escalades!

[Emre]

http://maistrenko.org/pics/bling4wheeler.jpg

Anyone knows where to get replacement tires for this one?Same place that sells rubber for these babies...

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb172/d-boy894/DONK.jpg

I'm not sure if there's even any air in there. Looks like solid rubber. Like wagon wheels :D

[Gregster]

hahaha this thread is LOL

[homer09]

hahaha this thread is LOL

yeah went from a good informative thread to complete delapidation :rolleyes:

[Emre]

yeah went from a good informative thread to complete delapidation :rolleyes:Don't worry...we'll get it back on track shortly. Give me a couple of days to get the new Ventus R-S3's on the car. I got confirmation that they shipped out to me yesterday.

I never saw a photo of these tires before I ordered them. Apparently, they have some little flames or something embossed in the treads . Oh dear. I was told not to worry because they'll disappear within a couple of thousand miles. Maybe I'll start off with a nice, long burnout :D

EDITED: Here's a pic from Google images...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3629/3421707311_c89177ac96.jpg

[McNihil]

Don't worry...we'll get it back on track shortly. Give me a couple of days to get the new Ventus R-S3's on the car. I got confirmation that they shipped out to me yesterday.

I never saw a photo of these tires before I ordered them. Apparently, they have some little flames or something embossed in the treads . Oh dear. I was told not to worry because they'll disappear within a couple of thousand miles. Maybe I'll start off with a nice, long burnout :D

EDITED: Here's a pic from Google images...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3629/3421707311_c89177ac96.jpg
Flames make anything go faster, it's been tested and true. :rolleyes:

[bmwqc]

Flames make anything go faster, it's been tested and true. :rolleyes:


The shoulders look pretty square on these tires. I gather they would work better on stiffer suspensions (less body roll)? What's the general consensus on tires with rounded vs square shoulders?


And getting back to the GRM tire test, wouldn't the results be more accurate if those tires were to be tested in different types of cars (well, being a budget conscious magazine, at least 1 FWD and 1 RWD)? Due to differences in handling characteristics, weight distribution, etc, what works well for a FWD (as used in the test) may not necessarily hold true for a FWD or a AWD for that matter.

[homer09]

yeah the flames are the ghay. the prototype tire at SEMA even had them in orange... i also dont really like the description tire rack has for the tires:


The Ventus name and unique flame patterns are subtly recessed into the center rib and both intermediate ribs to help drivers show off their "hot" new treads.

doesnt really sound too serious.

as for square shoulders... most if not all high performance tires use square shoulders vs round. it's usually a good indication of stiff side walls vs floppy balloony ones.

and yes, the test isnt the most representative when you try to apply it to a large heavy RWD car. all the tires in the category werent even the same size...

but you work with what you got. i've never seen a tire test which included multiple vehicles and/or multiple tire sizes. it just amplifies the cost. also, the test is very specific to auto-x, which means you cant necessarily hope for the same performance in lapping since some tires may handle heat more than others.

[Emre]

doesnt really sound too serious.I don't know much about marketing. If flames sell tires, that's fine by me.

What I do know is that the old R-S2's were popular with track drivers who didn't want to run r-comps. Even though they may be slow on the autocross course, they seem to be very well suited for track use. Similar dry grip to Azenis but without getting greasy in 10-12 minutes. Massively better wet grip, which is pretty important in New England and eastern Canada. Decent tire life. Sounds like a great all-around street and track tire.

What I've read about the R-S3 is that they were designed such that the compound is stickier, the tread-blocks squirm less, and the sidewalls are stiffer...all of which results in improved dry grip on the order of 30%. Yet, the price is in the same ballpark. Sounds like a tire worth checking out to me. As for the flames, they'll disappear soon enough!

[homer09]

What I've read about the R-S3 is that they were designed such that the compound is stickier, the tread-blocks squirm less, and the sidewalls are stiffer...all of which results in improved dry grip on the order of 30%. Yet, the price is in the same ballpark. Sounds like a tire worth checking out to me. As for the flames, they'll disappear soon enough!

however note that the treadwear rating drops from 200 for the RS-2 to 140 for the RS-3. so alot of that gain in grip is from a softer compound = sacrifice in life.

[sebdavid]

I was quite happy with my RS-2s, no overheating problem. They were squealing constantly, but on a heavy understeery car with stock suspension it's not that surprising. They were good in the rain, good in the dry, perfectly streetable... really, no complaints. I'm trying the Dunlop Star Specs this season (just had them installed) just because according to a Tire Rack test they were just that bit better, and because I like to try new things.