Found a DE video. Having second thoughts. [Archive]

Emre

12-12-2005, 07:00 PM

Unfortunately, I know these clowns. They posted this crap in the "Motorsports" section on the EvolutionM.net forums. They were pretty much shot down by everyone involved.

Like blacksheep says, they obviously didn't understand the spirit of the event. They were just there to show whether the Evo or STi was the top dog.

Emre

Lee

12-12-2005, 08:17 PM

Yup. I remember that event. My student had a souped-up charcoal Evo 8 with perhaps around 400HP, if not more. We would let people go by simply to concentrate on the next corner. I even wanted my student to go at a steady speed and try to keep that speed in corner one, instead of going flat out and over-brake before the corners. And then, those clowns who shot the video, they claimed a "kill".

I think that having an in-car video is great as it allows a student to make corrections and learn (obviously, it works for students who are at those events to learn). If it is to show off like that, then I say "no". The only problem is that for most students, they do not reach the proper "relaxed attitude" until they reach the advanced "solo" group and making a "film" might make them push the car beyond the driver's capability. So, should we ban in-car cameras until the advanced soloed group? That is the big question. Actually, it is a safety question.

Emre

12-12-2005, 08:38 PM

The only problem is that for most students, they do not reach the proper "relaxed attitude" until they reach the advanced "solo" group and making a "film" might make them push the car beyond the driver's capability. So, should we ban in-car cameras until the advanced soloed group? That is the big question. Actually, it is a safety question.This is also my position. I put in-car camera into the same category as telemetry or lap timing. Until the student is relaxed, safe, and consistent, then it only hurts them.

Emre

Andre

12-12-2005, 11:16 PM

Could it not be something that would be judged on a case by case basis? Kind'of like signing someone off.

-andre-

Emre

12-12-2005, 11:40 PM

Could it not be something that would be judged on a case by case basis? Kind'of like signing someone off.Even in the case of sign-offs, you follow some general principles (e.g., no sign-offs on the first day of a 3-day D.E., no signoffs for novice or intermediate students, etc.). It helps to have some general guidelines, otherwise you risk being arbitrary...and that just pisses everyone off.

Emre

Nano

12-14-2005, 06:07 AM

I think -in car video- is a great learning tool. It can be a liability with some people... but it shouldn't prohibited just because of a few idiots.

beginners already have a lot on their hands, and therefore I would prohibit it in the beginner's group... no exceptions.

But It would be nice if it was allowed in intermediate and advanced groups... at instructor's indiscretion maybe... or maybe even not the first day.

Anyway... I'd love to have hard copies of my DE events and be able to rewatch my driving at later dates.

Check this and then let us know why I have seconds thoughts with students in "lower groups" with in-car cameras. BTW most of the footage is from the intermediate group. I was instructing at that same event.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=124212284584493976&q=bmw

yield

12-14-2005, 08:59 AM

I would be at the same opinion as Nano... Video are great learning tool...
Just check here.... we learned that theses 2 guys are morron... LOL !

But seriously...If I would like to '' épater la gallerie " I would not do that on camera but try to be the best student and show great driving skills...

Taking over a BMW 525I with an Evo or a STI is not that hard... Just me with my Mazda Speed did it with an STI last october... am I a better driver for that..... I don't think so ! :)

Lee

12-14-2005, 10:56 AM

yield

12-14-2005, 11:54 AM

that could be an idea......

Nano

12-14-2005, 12:34 PM

We can allow students to have in-car camera but we can put conditions. Like forbidding that any content be published on the internet. This way, they will not do stupid things to try to look good. If ever the content is found on the net, the student gets banned from our events. Simple.

That could be a solution... but honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with posting in-car videos. I myself enjoy them a lot and always look for something to learn in them... hands position, gear changes, line, etc.... If a video contains good driving and good behavior on the track, I don't see anything wrong with it being on the web... it even could promote the professional nature of the activities. It can also get pretty hard to figure out what/who was driving, especially if the video shows up months later...

I'd rather have something along these lines...

First- I'd put a warning on the event rules(actually there is one already). That everyone is monitored at all times for proper track behavior, reckless/immature driving is not tollerated in the least, immediate ban from the event if etc.....

Second- A dissclaimer stating that if video material is found on the web that compromisses(with reckless driving or immature behavior) the educational nature, good spirit and name of the Club, THEN BMW Quebec will take all the measures to the extent of it's power to BAN such drivers from ever setting tire on a track again with any/all BMW clubs nation-wide. In car video is allowed ONLY as a learning aid

bmwqc

12-14-2005, 12:36 PM

Lee

12-14-2005, 12:42 PM

Hi Nano. You are entirely right. There is nothing wrong with posting in-car videos. The problem arises when you have clowns acting like what can be seen on the linked clip. Passing other cars, and then bragging about it. It gives a very wrong image of what the club works for: safe driving. It may have a very bad effect on the club's image. What if we loose a certain crowd because they think that our events are only about passing unsuspecting cars on the track? This might be fine for a ricers club. Not us. BTW Medias are not allowed at driver schools or Club Race in order to better control the club's image if any incident happens.

Emre

12-14-2005, 12:57 PM

As far as I'm concerned, in-car video is the same as timing. Only truly advanced drivers benefit from it. For everyone else, it's a distraction, an ipediment to learning, and can even be dangerous.

Further, once a video is made, we have no control over how it's distributed and interpreted. These idiots, for example, might very well have caused the BMW CCW Boston Chapter a lot of harm. Many newbies considering their first school might do a search on Google Videos and see these yahoos acting like reckless morons. That sends an INCREDIBLY bad message. Exactly the message we're trying to avoid! By looking at that vid, you'd think there were no difference between us an Trac Racing: a bunch of egomaniacs hunting down KILLZ.

Advanced driver's should know better. And pretty much all instructors do know better. If it were up to me, I would only allow video cameras in instructor cars and maybe advanced students cars. I would require people to be "signed off" to videotape, just as we require them to be signed off to solo.

Emre

Nano

12-14-2005, 12:58 PM

This measure may not be enough to deter this type of foolish antics. Perhaps all students with in-car CAMs should be made to sign a form prior to the DE. In any case, those idiots who made that video should be blacklisted from future events.

That's exactly what the biggest turn-off should be. IF you do retarded driving and post stupid stuff on the web.... we will know about it... and you will be banned. Those students should definitely be blacklisted.

they even have been retarded enough to post their names

Emre

12-14-2005, 01:04 PM

There is another thing that bothers me about videotaping and photography at these events. There are so many ricers out there videotaping their KILLZ and asinine behavior behind the wheel. The last thing we need is having that attitude infiltrate our schools. We are already under attack by the insurance industry, car manufacturers, lease agencies, etc. We need to be very careful about how we present ourselves.

For example, when a car rolls at the track, suddenly 10,000 amateur journalists come out of the woodwork and start snapping pics, videotaping, etc. The next morning, all the enthusiast message boards are full of pics. What happens when that poor driver has to go to his insurance agent? He has no control over how the incident is portrayed. And, again, it sends the wrong image about these events. When people see pics of rolled cars and stuff, they never hear the full story. Just the gory pics.

We work very hard to distinguish ourselves from the masses. We stand out as being dedicated to safety, maturity, and friendship. It doesn't take much to ruin that image. A couple of jackasses can do it. I'm not sure that the (very) minimal benefits of allowing students to videotape their sessions outweighs the VERY large damage they can cause.

Emre

Nano

12-14-2005, 01:10 PM

Honestly I have a hard time seeing all the video as I am on dialup.

wasn't it possible for them to get blackflagged? And didn't they have instructors with them?

Reckless driving shouldn't be tollerated... whether you have a camera or not.

IMHO it's much easier to ban such behavior than banning incar cameras (some of the filming was done outside of the car). I mean, nothing stops a driver from racing or driving like an ass if he really wants to and is not monitored.... After that, there are plenty of ways to record ones "prowess"... maybe even as a short kill story on a messageboard. I don't think that getting rid of cameras gets rid of idiots. Might be more profitable to educate drivers to the use of incar camera and track behavior instead.

I agree with you that only advanced (and maybe some intermediate) should be allowed in car cameras.

alex

12-14-2005, 01:15 PM

well, a clause like this:
posting of videos disallowed without prior permission/evaluation of club representatives.

even if not enforced completely would make people hide date and event details on the "stupid" videos (fear of getting caught) and hence not hinder the club "reputation".
A.

Karin

12-14-2005, 01:27 PM

We can allow students to have in-car cameras, but under certain conditions. Like forbidding that any content be published on the internet. This way, they will not do stupid things to try to look good. If ever the content is found on the net, the student gets banned from our events. Simple.

But the damage is already done at this point... At two-day events, permit the camera on the second day, with instructor's OK. At one-day events, only in the afternoon, once again with the instructor's OK. The instructor is in the car anyways - if the student gets out of hand because of the camera, he/she can reel him/her back on line (do you like the play on words here? :) )
I think our instructors are good enough and reasonable enough to be able to make a decision like that.
Not to diss the disclaimer on the driving waver, of course. I personally think both are needed to weed out jacka**es like that. But I think that instructors are reasonable enough to be able to judge who can and who cannot tape themselves. If they can't, they shouldn't be instructing.

blacksheep

12-14-2005, 01:58 PM

@ Nano - those guys didn't do anything technically "wrong" that deserved being black flagged.

they posted in-car and 3rd person camera footage of themselves doing a DE. The stupid thing is, every time they pass a car they flash a huge message on the screen with "+1" and their number of "killz" (total # of cars they've passed).

Half the cars they pass are just "slower" (Audi A4 1.8T vs Subaru STi ... DUHHHH), and the other half are on warmup or cooldown laps. So anyone who's ever lapped a track or done a DE will immediately understand that they are idiots.

But, to outsiders, this sort video gives a pretty poor image to the event and to the spirit of DE. Makes it look like some kiddie pissing contest.

Alex's idea isn't bad, but it would be impossible to enforce. So, I guess everybody has to pay for the actions of a few idiots : no videotaping allowed.

Lee

12-14-2005, 03:36 PM

At any level (novice, intermediate or advanced), being able to watch what has been practiced over the day can be pure fun. Nonetheless, at the novice and intemediate levels, there are so many things to learn and practice, that a tape cannot help much. Perhaps in the advanced group, there could be a pedagogic side to it. But then again, if the driver cannot correct his "bad habits" while behind the wheel with an instructor by his (her) side, I doubt there is anything he can learn from a recording. Honestly, even Club Racers have an in-board camera solely for entertainment purpose (with your buddies by your side and beer in one hand), or as a proof in the eventuality of an accident. I think that as long as the student has an instructor, the tape has no use. So, on-board cameras allowed only for advanced students (signed-off too). Usually, at that level, they do not try to prove anything silly. And therefore are not a threat to the BMW Club's image.

Andrei

12-14-2005, 04:46 PM

I have seen some chapters(Trillium) have a clause in the rules that specify that any video recording can be made only with the permission of the organizers prior to the event.

I think having a clause like that would be good. Only the organizer can decide if it is a good idea to film. Then we can keep the actual rules flexible as it is in our discretion. But the general idea that only solo (or even advanced solo with 30+ days) or instructors are generally allowed is a good starting point.

Nano

12-15-2005, 01:46 AM

@ Nano - those guys didn't do anything technically "wrong" that deserved being black flagged.

Ok.. I just assumed at one point there was some serious senseless "racing" going on.

If the behavior on the track was "correct", than the problem is different. It's not about the camera causing hormonal dissfunctions on the track, but about image and the possibility of defamation.

I still believe the best way to preserve the image of the club(s) is to keep "advertising" how safe, educational and professional these events are.

Idiots will always be there, and you can't control everything that is said or posted anyway. Hopefully for every idiot who speaks badly or posts such crap, there will be hundreds who will say and post the opposite.

Maybe BMW club of Quebec should make a nice video like Lee proposed. Everything from prepping the car, inspections, drivers meeting, student classes, incar footage of proper passing technique, pitting, flagging, etc.... And have it posted on the website for everyone to see.

I think having filming approved by organizers on individual basis and having only advanced students allowed in-car camera is pretty much bomb-proof. Good videos can only be good image.

mayor

12-19-2005, 11:02 PM

Half the cars they pass are just "slower" (Audi A4 1.8T vs Subaru STi ... DUHHHH), and the other half are on warmup or cooldown laps. So anyone who's ever lapped a track or done a DE will immediately understand that they are idiots.

But, to outsiders, this sort video gives a pretty poor image to the event and to the spirit of DE. Makes it look like some kiddie pissing contest.

Yes, and that's not mentioning the fact that this was in the beginner group, contrarily to what Lee said. I distinctly remember watching this group of cars when I was not on-track (in the intermediate group).

I'd say that car performance in this group, and in intermediate, even, doesn't say that much...