GT2 vs. GTR

[Phil]

http://magazines.drivers-republic.co...c/thetruth030/ (http://magazines.drivers-republic.com/driversrepublic/thetruth030/)

[sebdavid]

Great piece. Thanks for sharing Phil.

[Gregster]

:D:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlGMX8G3B4

[sebdavid]

We’ll try to repeat the test (maybe with a ZR1 for company) in the Spring.

Can't wait to see that... huh Gregster?

[Gregster]

Can't wait to see that... huh Gregster?

haha I'll be first in line to see that

Actually there is some sort of talk that one of the Vette tuners is working on a ZR1-R.. 850hp, retuned magenetic suspension, different gear ratios to pass 210mph, re designed areo.. But I like the 850hp part because 640hp isn't enough :p The ZR-1 still suffers from the ultra long gears that GM put in to avoid the gas guzzler tax.

[bmwqc]

haha I'll be first in line to see that

Actually there is some sort of talk that one of the Vette tuners is working on a ZR1-R.. 850hp, retuned magenetic suspension, different gear ratios to pass 210mph, re designed areo.. But I like the 850hp part because 640hp isn't enough :p The ZR-1 still suffers from the ultra long gears that GM put in to avoid the gas guzzler tax.


At the rate they're going, pretty soon these "street cars" will outperform F1 cars :rolleyes:

[sebdavid]

In a straight line some already do!

And some are more powerful...

Power-to-weight is still lacking though, as well as downforce.

Some road cars have caught up to older (70s and earlier) F1 cars; maybe we'll see Radical-style track specials catch up to current F1 cars in, say, 40 years...

[bmwqc]

In a straight line some already do!

And some are more powerful...

Power-to-weight is still lacking though, as well as downforce.

Some road cars have caught up to older (70s and earlier) F1 cars; maybe we'll see Radical-style track specials catch up to current F1 cars in, say, 40 years...


The way Mad Max and Uncle Bernie are strangling the development of F1 (pushing for engine homologation), I wouldn't be surprised if that day will come sooner.

[Andrei]

Some road cars have caught up to older (70s and earlier) F1 cars; maybe we'll see Radical-style track specials catch up to current F1 cars in, say, 40 years...

Please mention those "street" cars that caught up to 70s F1 cars.

Top speeds were never that impressive in F1. Having the wheels exposed to the airstream makes them very bad for that.

As for Radicals catching F1 cars I'll wait and see. So far a Stohr can do a 1:30 at Tremblant vs 1:17 for a Champ Car doing the chicane in corner 2.
Maybe with a pro driver and a team to set it up the Stohr will do 1:25 but the gap is still pretty big.

Now Bernie is adding to his list of senile ideas. Gold medals!? WTF?

If he wants to reward wins just look at what was done before. Senna won his first championship vs. Prost du to the fact that you used the best 13 out of 16 races to calculate the points. Prost was more consistent over 16 races but Senna won more races and some bad races did not hurt him.
Of course Prost is still not happy about that and they did change it for the 1989 season that all races count (and Prost got the title). So now they want to go back because a Ferrari didn't win. If it happened the other way I guarantee there would be less bitching to change it.

[bmwqc]

Please mention those "street" cars that caught up to 70s F1 cars.

Top speeds were never that impressive in F1. Having the wheels exposed to the airstream makes them very bad for that.




F1 cars are "slower" on the straights mainly because of the tremendous downforce generated at higher speeds. Actually the front wheels do not block that much wind because a lot of that air gets deflected over the wheels by the large and wide front wing. F1 cars are designed to sacrifice top speeds in order take the curves at a higher speed (= lower lap times).

[Andrei]

For the same amount of downforce generated by the wings the car with covered wheels will get a higher top speed. If you cover the wheel sides you can go even faster but it makes for tricky turning and changing of wheels.

[sebdavid]

Please mention those "street" cars that caught up to 70s F1 cars.

Top speeds were never that impressive in F1. Having the wheels exposed to the airstream makes them very bad for that.

As for Radicals catching F1 cars I'll wait and see. So far a Stohr can do a 1:30 at Tremblant vs 1:17 for a Champ Car doing the chicane in corner 2.
Maybe with a pro driver and a team to set it up the Stohr will do 1:25 but the gap is still pretty big.


I should have said "road-legal" cars. Although over a lap of some tracks, I wouldn't be surprised if something like a Carrera GT, GT2, Enzo, Zonda F, would do similar laps times as an old F1 car. And definitely more consistently. Depends how old you go back, and what you consider a road car...

Radicals should logically one day catch F1 cars. Just not their contemporary F1 cars. A radical from 2030 might catch up to today's F1 cars, that's what I meant.

[Andrei]

I should have said "road-legal" cars. Although over a lap of some tracks, I wouldn't be surprised if something like a Carrera GT, GT2, Enzo, Zonda F, would do similar laps times as an old F1 car. And definitely more consistently. Depends how old you go back, and what you consider a road car...

The qualifying time for 1970 F1 race in Tremblant was 1:31. The track was different, of course, but I am sure it would not change the times by 10 seconds or more if you compare to the current one.

Now find me a street legal car that can do well under 1:41 at Tremblant without serious modifications.

[sebdavid]

Dang. With all the advances in tire technology, aerodynamics, suspension, etc. I would have thought a current Radical or Atom or something like that would be significantly faster than a 1970 F1 car... doesn't seem to be the case. I stand corrected.

I would have expected them to be at the level of current supercars... how fast does a well-driven Carrera GT or Enzo lap Tremblant, do you know?

[Gregster]

Dang. With all the advances in tire technology, aerodynamics, suspension, etc. I would have thought a current Radical or Atom or something like that would be significantly faster than a 1970 F1 car... doesn't seem to be the case. I stand corrected.

I would have expected them to be at the level of current supercars... how fast does a well-driven Carrera GT or Enzo lap Tremblant, do you know?


The real question we should be asking is how fast a ZR-1 can get around Tremblant...

[bmwqc]

The real question we should be asking is how fast a ZR-1 can get around Tremblant...


Hey Gregster,

Being the Detroit iron fan that you are, does that mean that we can expect to see you behind the wheels of a ZR-1 soon? :D

[Gregster]

Hey Gregster,

Being the Detroit iron fan that you are, does that mean that we can expect to see you behind the wheels of a ZR-1 soon? :D

I don't think my bonus at work will be that big to get a ZR-1. Maybe a C5 Z06 in a few years.

[Andrei]

The real question we should be asking is how fast a ZR-1 can get around Tremblant...

Not at 1:31.

But low 1:40s is there for sure.

It can do the straights very fast but in the corners it's just as fast as any other car that weights 3,000 pounds.

That's why old F1 cars are still so impressive. They are light.

[sebdavid]

But a Radical or Atom or Caterham are light too... shouldn't they be faster? Especially the Radical given the aero... just seems weird to me somehow.

How much power were 70's F1 cars putting out?

[bmwqc]

But a Radical or Atom or Caterham are light too... shouldn't they be faster? Especially the Radical given the aero... just seems weird to me somehow.

How much power were 70's F1 cars putting out?


The typical F1 engine of the late 60s and early 70s was the Cosworth DFV 3.0L V8 - approx 450 hp.

[sebdavid]

OK, that is significantly more powerful than the SR8's engine.
And those F1s were 100kgs lighter.
I'll be damned!

[Andrei]

If you look at 50s F1 cars then yes, they are pretty slow compared to modern stuff. But once they figured out aero tricks they got fast.

And what is even more impressive is how undrivable those cars were. Super twitchy and with very inadequate safety measures. Jackie Stewart was very wise to quit after his 3rd championship. He'd be dead otherwise.

[johnmdanskin]

One of the things I found interesting was how clear it was that a GT-R on same tires would totally spank the GT2. The re70rs are runflats with a (very low) durometer rating of 140. The gt2 is on mich pscs with a durometer of 80. Wearing out fast is not a totally foolproof metric, but I'd be really surprised if the gtr didn't eat the porch after a $1000 tire upgrade.

[johnmdanskin]

Lightweight is the way to go. Carbon fiber bicycle was faster than the stig. I'm thinking of an upgrade to 2hp and 12 pounds of raging bicycle next year at tremblant.

[bmwqc]

One of the things I found interesting was how clear it was that a GT-R on same tires would totally spank the GT2. The re70rs are runflats with a (very low) durometer rating of 140. The gt2 is on mich pscs with a durometer of 80. Wearing out fast is not a totally foolproof metric, but I'd be really surprised if the gtr didn't eat the porch after a $1000 tire upgrade.


Yes, it would be interesting in comparing the 2 cars wearing the same type of shoes. But does Bridgestone have a real track tire in their product lineup?

[sebdavid]

Tires are one thing, but I think we should be concentrating on the fact that a lot more people can drive a GTR fast than a GT2. I'm sure I would be significantly faster initially in the GTR than the GT2, before I got a handle on the rear-engined beast.

And I think even a very good race car driver can extract a lot more of the total performance available in a GTR over such a long and difficult lap.

I believe the GT2 has a higher performance potential, and that if 100% of the GT2's performance was used over a lap (especially on a normal track, not a cold and damp Nordshleife), it would spank the GTR.

But keeping in mind the price difference and the fact 0.001% of GT2 buyers will have the skills to extract 100% out of it, the GTR is an immense achievement.

I'd still much rather test drive the GT2 around a racetrack, though, and I suspect most of you would feel the same way. Otherwise we'd all be driving Subarus instead of Bimmers. If it's not challenging, it's boring.