View Full Version : In preparation for BAB8
SpeedTT
11-09-2005, 10:28 AM
BAB7 was fantastic, but I find that there were a little too many participants in each group. Will see your ceiling has a maximum of 30 cars by group?
90 students instead of 120 in total? That is an excellent idea if every participant is willing to pay 33% more. If you felt that there were some trains in your group, it is possible that one driver was not in its proper group. And I do not mean you, Percy. If a driver who belongs to novice gets into an intermediate group, then for sure that person will create trains. Homogeneity is key to a smooth running group. It is not always possible to assign students with 100% accuracy. Sometimes we check track history from a driver and find out too late that even after 6 track days, nothing has been learned, and we end up with a very slow drivers in a fast group. But I hear you. Next year we will try to have groups with a more leveled speed range.
Also, remember that NO profit at all was made from BAB7. The event broke even. We can cut on the Saturday dinner. We will cut on the expensive tent, but we will not cut on t-shirt. The track is hyper expensive to run on weekends. We will also make sure that any expense from the Club Race stays with Club Race and that the DE doesn't get a share of that bill. I am afraid that for BAB7, the DE had a small share of the CR expenses. Which, obviously, I do not agree. Extra cost for the insurance, extra safety features such as more flaggers, extra staffed ambulance, expenses for the CR stewarts. As soon as we get news for BAB8, we will assure that costs are kept to a minimal, and that we get perhaps fewer drivers.
But one question remains: do you guys want to keep the Club Race, or not?
blacksheep
11-09-2005, 10:02 PM
club race is fun to watch, but it cuts into the track time for the students.
any ideas for a solution?
Andre
11-09-2005, 10:41 PM
I for one will not miss Bab8. The Trillium event held in early July was fun (and undersubscribed). Not the same amount of machinery to oogle at but very little traffic to worry about and plenty of track time. I wonder if they are planning a repeat (of the event not undersubscription). What about Calaboogie? That track should also be ready should it not?
Now if only the deer would stay off the track and those pesky Minis stay rubber side down...
-andré-
Is it spring yet?
The Trillium event held in early July was fun (and undersubscribed). Not the same amount of machinery to oogle at but very little traffic to worry about and plenty of track time. I wonder if they are planning a repeat (of the event not undersubscription).The problem with that event was that the Trillium guys took on a weekday event and didn't bother to advertize with Quebec members until the very last minute. Without a lot of local support, these events don't work. Trillium was relying on their own members to drive 500 kms to Tremblant...and that's just not realistic.
The backstory is that the Quebec chapter was offered those same dates...but we turned them down. From our experience, we have a very hard time attracting students to Tremblant on weekdays. Even with aggressive advertizing, we still barely break even. Weekday events at Tremblant simply don't work. Though weekends are more expensive, we get a MUCH higher turnout. Trillium didn't take our advice and experience into consideration and they lost a ton of money.
From the student's point of view, an undersold event might be fun...but it's disastrous for the club. One or two events like that could bankrupt a small club like ours. Paradoxically, a more expensive weekend event is a lesser financial risk. But, like Lee pointed out, once you take on a weekend date at Tremblant then you need TONS of students to break even. Otherwise, you'd need to charge everyone an obscenely high entry fee.
Remember, Tremblant isn't Mecaglisse. In addition to the frightening track rental fees, you need a minimum of 14 corner workers plus a wrecker, ambulance, and MD on standby (all of these are mandated by track management...so there's no cutting corners). And we can't run such a big event without hiring classroom instructors, giving people t-shirts, and hosting some sort of dinner. This is a club activity after all...so the social side of things is important, too! The costs are astronomical.
Will see your ceiling has a maximum of 30 cars by group?Tremblant is a real Catch-22 situation for us. If we don't do a Tremblant event, everyone bitches. If we do a weekday event, no one shows up and we lose money. If we do a weekend event, costs are very high: so, we either keep the number of students down and charge everyone a fortune (like the Ferrari Club) or let a lot of students in to try keep the student fees down. Whatever we do, people will complain! We really can't win :(
Emre
blacksheep
11-10-2005, 01:26 AM
it's not "complaining" it's "constructive criticism" ;)
I don't think 40 cars per group is too many *if* the skill level is fairly well matched. I think one of the key points is moving students around between groups when necessary. In '04 at "midsummer heat" (ha ha) some students were in C group but it was SO obvious they were quick and experienced they got bumped up to more advanced groups. I didn't see this happening at BAB, so some VERY quick people were left toodling around behind slow cars all weekend.
Also, if the instructors keep an eye on the student's courtesy (teaching their student to keep an eye on traffic behind and to let faster people pass in a timely manner) helps keep the frustration level low.
SpeedTT
11-10-2005, 08:59 AM
We can cut on the Saturday dinner. We will cut on the expensive tent
Good idea !!
SpeedTT
11-10-2005, 09:03 AM
But one question remains: do you guys want to keep the Club Race, or not?
S'assurer que les partcipants du club race assument les frais engendrés par leur activité sans que tous les autres pilotes n'aient a payer me semble (fair)
Hey Emre.
Do you know if the directors have reserved a date for BAB8, for the joint event with Trillium and for BMW Fest East? What about the joint event with Trillium? Who is in charge with communicating with Vince to reserve dates? Hopefully, we can clear up the communication process with the other chapters and within our own club.
I have already talked 2 weeks ago with the Boston guys and everyone is thrilled to organize/attend BAB8. As mentionned in my previous post, I would also like to keep a clear separate accounting of the DE vs CR expenses. If it were a small Quebec chapter event, I would (again) use Le Bernardin as a dinner location. For $25cdn it was a hell of a deal. What about having some staff cooking hamburgers/hot-dogs? Those who want to spend $50 for a snobby meal can eat out, as the track rats would feast on high-on-fat food at the track. Perhaps for the lower-cost Trillium/Quebec event.
Perhaps we could open a thread reserved for the directors on this forum, with limited/restricted access. The side benefit would also be that directors could start visiting more often and could post on the other threads, and perhaps better connect with the members. Andrei, do you think you can open a new thread for directors. Just let us know the password. We could use it to communicate with Boston and Trillium too.
SpeedTT
11-10-2005, 09:53 AM
it's not "complaining" it's "constructive criticism" ;)
I don't think 40 cars per group is too many *if* the skill level is fairly well matched. I think one of the key points is moving students around between groups when necessary. In '04 at "midsummer heat" (ha ha) some students were in C group but it was SO obvious they were quick and experienced they got bumped up to more advanced groups. I didn't see this happening at BAB, so some VERY quick people were left toodling around behind slow cars all weekend.
Also, if the instructors keep an eye on the student's courtesy (teaching their student to keep an eye on traffic behind and to let faster people pass in a timely manner) helps keep the frustration level low.
Je suis d'accord...
yield
11-10-2005, 10:12 AM
Sorry to do some pollution in this thread. But is BAB8 the event at Tremblant ? Right ? And this event is next year....
And does any member of the BMW Quebec club are able to attend this event ?
Sorry just trying to catch...
Andrei
11-10-2005, 10:42 AM
Perhaps we could open a thread reserved for the directors on this forum, with limited/restricted access. The side benefit would also be that directors could start visiting more often and could post on the other threads, and perhaps better connect with the members. Andrei, do you think you can open a new thread for directors. Just let us know the password. We could use it to communicate with Boston and Trillium too.
I can make a whole section or forum just for the directors and organizers. It is quite easy to do. No need for special passwords. People in the "directors" group would be the only ones granted access.
The potential problem is that the directors would need to visit the site often. Everyone remembers to check their e-mail. Visiting a website is harder to do regularly. Of course, the user can be notified of new posts by e-mail so that issue can be overcome, too.
SpeedTT
11-10-2005, 10:45 AM
Effectivement BAB8 est l'evenement de l'an prochain mais comme l'a fait remarqué Blaksheep, afin de faire de la critique constructive j'ai ouvert ce sujet afin que l'on puisse améliorer l'evenement de l'an prochain. Pour l'instant ce qui ressort c'est:
1) comment rendre les coûts abordables? ( ex: se débarasser ces coûts faramineux de la tente et du buffet, faire payer la juste part aux participants ( sachant que la course augmente les coûts de l'evenement))
2) comment réduire le nombre de voitures et que ce nombre reste ni trop ni pas assez? ( Lee suggère une meilleure répartition des pilotes afin d'avoir des qualités plus homogènes. De son côté Blacksheep mentionne l'idée de déplacer durant le week-end les gens afin de les mettre dans des groupes correspondants à leur calibre de pilotage ( upgarder ou l'inverse et ce le plus rapidement possible pour le bien être de tout le monde).
Emre précise que l'on arrivera jamais a satisfaire tout le monde, mais il y a suffisamment de matière grise ( brain) et de créativité pour ariver a cet objectif.
Pur l'instant, a ce que j'en sais rien n,est arrêter pour l'an prochain en ce qui a trait à BAB8 ( date, coûts, nombre de participants), mais je préfère les discussions proactives aux tentatives de changer une décisions prises... c'est plus simple ainsi.
yield
11-10-2005, 10:56 AM
Peut-etre séparer le prix de l'évenement en 2 partie.
1e partie : Le temps de piste ou la piste elle même.
2e partie : La nourriture et la tente. Prix en avance et prix sur place dépendant de la disponibilitée et de la quantitée de la nourriture... Voir un commanditaire pour la nourriture. Ex : Club Price.(Costco) qui pourrais donner 50 % de rabais par exemple....
C'est une idée comme ca !
The potential problem is that the directors would need to visit the site often. Everyone remembers to check their e-mail. Visiting a website is harder to do regularly. Of course, the user can be notified of new posts by e-mail so that issue can be overcome, too.
Thanks Andrei. Directors should not "forget" to spend a little time for their club either. That involves, among other things, visiting their own chapter website in order to be aware of what members want. Perhaps that thread could be open to everyone, this way, members could ask questions directly to the directors.
...De son côté Blacksheep mentionne l'idée de déplacer durant le week-end les gens afin de les mettre dans des groupes correspondants à leur calibre de pilotage ( upgarder ou l'inverse et ce le plus rapidement possible pour le bien être de tout le monde).
C'est une très bonne idée mais pas toujours réalisable, car déplacer un élève implique de déplacer aussi son instructeur. Et comme un instructeur ne peut pas être dans deux voitures à la fois, on comprend que ce n'est pas toujours possible.
Sorry to do some pollution in this thread. But is BAB8 the event at Tremblant ? Right ? And this event is next year....
And does any member of the BMW Quebec club are able to attend this event ?
Sorry just trying to catch...
Yup. BAB8 will be open to all BMW Club members and will take place probably in August 2005.
yield
11-10-2005, 11:55 AM
Ha! 2006 ! ;)
Sérieusement si vous avez besoin d'aide pour cet évènement bien n'hésitez pas à demander.
mightydread
11-10-2005, 08:45 PM
Now if only the deer would stay off the track and those pesky Minis stay rubber side down...
-andré-
Is it spring yet?[/quote]
what do you mean pesky minis??:D
mikie
Andre
11-10-2005, 10:34 PM
Aren't all Minis pesky?:p
I was trying to inject a note of humour in a rather unfortunate situation as I came upon one that had gone off in turn 7. (and refused to stay --> "rubber side down"). Thankfully, the driver was okay.
I actually quite like them and after seeing how the car survived a rollover, I like them even more as they are built like brick sh*t houses.
-a-
Is it spring yet?
Hey Emre.
Do you know if the directors have reserved a date for BAB8, for the joint event with Trillium and for BMW Fest East? What about the joint event with Trillium? Who is in charge with communicating with Vince to reserve dates? Hopefully, we can clear up the communication process with the other chapters and within our own club.
I have already talked 2 weeks ago with the Boston guys and everyone is thrilled to organize/attend BAB8. As mentionned in my previous post, I would also like to keep a clear separate accounting of the DE vs CR expenses. If it were a small Quebec chapter event, I would (again) use Le Bernardin as a dinner location. For $25cdn it was a hell of a deal. What about having some staff cooking hamburgers/hot-dogs? Those who want to spend $50 for a snobby meal can eat out, as the track rats would feast on high-on-fat food at the track. Perhaps for the lower-cost Trillium/Quebec event.
Perhaps we could open a thread reserved for the directors on this forum, with limited/restricted access. The side benefit would also be that directors could start visiting more often and could post on the other threads, and perhaps better connect with the members. Andrei, do you think you can open a new thread for directors. Just let us know the password. We could use it to communicate with Boston and Trillium too.
Hi Folks. I sent out a couple of e-mail messages to chapter and national directors about events at Tremblant next year to see what everyone is planning. The Audi folks are very keen to work with us again on a joint event. We know that Boston wants to co-host BAB8 with a club race. And at the National Directors' meeting this summer we approved in principal the idea of "Est-Fest" where Quebec, Ottawa, Trillium, and Bluenose would work together on an extended event focused around Tremlant track and the surrounding area. So far, however, the silence has been deafening.
Bookings, especially for weekends in the summer, happen now. We should all encourage that arrangements get set or we'll lose out.
Bookings, especially for weekends in the summer, happen now. We should all encourage that arrangements get set or we'll lose out.The problem is that most of the core group of volunteers that have organized events in the past are not able to put in the same time and effort we used to. Personally, this whole Harvard project is taking up an awful lot of time and I still have my board exams, PhD defense, and all kinds of other crap to prepare for in addition. I know Lee, Henry, Cherif, and Karin are also in the same boat. So, this year is bad!
As a Club, we can't rely on the same couple of people to do all the work each year. We need volunteers from within the membership to step up so we can put together a great season.
Emre
i felt that Bab7 was overcrowded, both ON and OFF the track... (people were parking outside the gate)
I've talked to lot's of people in each group, and in every group there have been issues. I cannot bring myself to accept that 40 cars on the track at once is a good thing...
Maybe you guys forgot... :) I urge you to watch Kolia's video...
http://www.alexandre-malouin.com/Download/LCMT/BAB_VII.avi
I put bab8 on my list, but if I find alternate tremblant schools in that period I will probably switch.
bmwqc
11-12-2005, 11:23 PM
90 students instead of 120 in total? That is an excellent idea if every participant is willing to pay 33% more. Also, remember that NO profit at all was made from BAB7. The event broke even. are kept to a minimal, and that we get perhaps fewer drivers.
Lee,
I beg to differ. On weekend days, Tremblant charge USD $7500 per day (unless the rates have gone up), that's US 15K for Sat & Sun. Including track personnel, insurance, tent, food, T-shirts, stationery (car numbers, etc), condos for the organizers, the total budget for the 2 day part (Sat & Sun) of BAB7 should NOT have exceeded Cdn $35K (and that's being exceedingly generous).
The students each paid about $525 Cdn. With a budget of about $35k Cdn, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that it only took 67 students to achieve break even. If the actual cost figures are close to my calculations, we can see that a similar event with 90 paying students can actually make a lot of money for the club(s), but we are talking about 120 students! So what happened to all the gravy?
I beg to differ. On weekend days, Tremblant charge USD $7500 per day (unless the rates have gone up), that's US 15K for Sat & Sun. Including track personnel, insurance, tent, food, T-shirts, stationery (car numbers, etc), condos for the organizers, the total budget for the 2 day part (Sat & Sun) of BAB7 should NOT have exceeded Cdn $35K (and that's being exceedingly generous).In fact, the event cost more than twice that figure. There were TONS of extra expenses that were rung up by the Boston guys. Believe it or not, we barely broke even on the event.
Remember, the Quebec Chapter lost almost all of our control over BAB-7. Past BAB events were not run this way...and future events most certainly will not be run this way. Total costs will be far less than BAB-7. Students will be charged less. Numbers of participants will not need to be so high.
Emre
bmwqc
11-13-2005, 01:34 AM
In fact, the event cost more than twice that figure. There were TONS of extra expenses that were rung up by the Boston guys. Believe it or not, we barely broke even on the event.
Remember, the Quebec Chapter lost almost all of our control over BAB-7. Past BAB events were not run this way...and future events most certainly will not be run this way. Total costs will be far less than BAB-7. Students will be charged less. Numbers of participants will not need to be so high.
Emre
It sounds like fuzzy accounting to me. It's strange that the can run up such high expenses when they didn't even want to pay for the condo accomodations for the event organizers from the Quebec chapter. With about 120 paying students (fro the 2 days) at $525 per, that's over 60k of revenue. Now we all have a good idea how much it costs to rent the track, and all the other major incidentals that go with holding an event like this - how can they possibly only break on this event? Furthermore, (from our chapter's past experience in 2003), the club race itself should have generated a positive cash flow. I hope the Boston Chapter provided Quebec a full and detailed accounting report on the event.
Under normal circunstances, an event this large would have brought landslide profits to both clubs - instead we are left scratching our heads in bewilderment. I agree 100%. Any future event we do with these guys at Tremblant, we have to take full control.
If I remember properly, the weekend rate for the track was $15k per day. An insane rate. Boston chapter made the akward unilateral decision to rent the tent at $5000usd, which is the equivalent of 11 registrations. Obviously a bad budgetary choice, as well as a big strategical mistake. That tent took the space of too many track cars and we had to squeeze. I believe that everyone agrees that BAB7 was nerve wrecking for the Quebec chapter organizers (Quebec directors certainly remember the inflamatory communications between me and Joe). Boston execs realized their mistakes and swored to correct the process. Which is a good sign for the futrure.
One major problem for us is the money needed for a downpayment and why we need to either work with several chapters or one large one. We just do not have the money in our bank account to pay so much of the costs well in advance of the event.
Now that track managment has been reorganized ther might be some hope of their being sympathetic to this dilemma.
One major problem for us is the money needed for a downpayment and why we need to either work with several chapters or one large one. We just do not have the money in our bank account to pay so much of the costs well in advance of the event.
Now that track managment has been reorganized ther might be some hope of their being sympathetic to this dilemma.
Boston chapter agreed to make the downpayment for BAB7, manage the budget and registration in one location to ease the process. Everyone was fine with it. If we do another BAB, then Boston knows they will have to front the money. Not having much money in the bank, is not a reason for our chapter to be submissive and accept any conditions. For BAB8, we will require a budget based on BAB7, with the possibility to delete costly options. Obviously, our organization is a non-benefit club, but on a long term basis. That means that we still need to make profit on some events, to afford loosing money at others. Or to allow us to make deposits. A separate budget for the Club Race must also be made. The DE should not subsidize CR, and should not pay for the extra insurance cost and flaggers.
The news from Calabogie are not that good, so we should not expect an event at this new location in 2006. The track is graded but not asphalted. Even if the tarmac get layered by the end of June (after the ground has firmed up), then it takes another 3 months for the asphalt to heat cycle. So, no event in 2006. Perhaps another Spring Fling in May in Sanair and another one at Mecaglisse. Small events are succesfull and easy to organize. Both attracted a lot of attention and allowed us to register new members. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on instructorship should be made though for SpringFling. The event could be used to start training 2 or 3 new instructors.
All in all, we need a few event chairs. Who wants to organize, manage and actively promote SpringFling? BMW Fest East? Trillium/Quebec event? I volunteer to keep organizing BAB8. Does Phil want to work on BMW Fest East for our chapter? Emre, would you like to do the Trillium/Quebec DE. Do Karin/Henry/Cherif want to do SpringFling? Anyone else want to jump in?
I felt that Bab7 was overcrowded, both ON and OFF the track... (people were parking outside the gate)
Boston chapter made the akward unilateral decision to rent the tent at $5000usd, which is the equivalent of 11 registrations. Obviously a bad budgetary choice, as well as a big strategical mistake.Nano,
The fact that there wasn't enough room in the paddocks was my main problem with the event as well. As Lee says, a HUGE part of the problem was that ridiculouly expensive and massive tent that was set up right in the middle of the paddocks. That was a very poor decision.
Another problem was that we did not anticipate how many racers would bring massive rigs. It used to be you'd go to a BMW CCA Club race and the majority of racers drove to the event. Lately, it seems that the vast majority trailer their cars...and some of the trailers are absurdly large for what's supposed to be fun, inexpensive, amateur racing. Frankly, we were caught off-guard.
If we simply got rid of the tent (let alone made the racers park their rigs in the upper parking lot) that alone would have cleared up abundant room for all students, instructors, and racers. In the future, this is what we must do at combined drivers schools/club races.
Emre
I wish I hade the time to be a major organizer but given my work committments and that I'm also involved as President of BMW CC and Vice-Chair of International Council I'm pretty full up as a volunteer. I would be pleased to help out in a small way especially if you guys put together a team of organizers. For example, if you wanted an Est-Fest and/or a joint event with Audi I'd be happy to continue following up with these folks to gauge interest and get some real committment. But the team would need to set the parameters first.
But as someone already pointed out we need fresh blood, new and more volunteers to step forward.
And we need someone to contact Track Management.
As far as Club Racing, well, you know I'm going to be in favor because I club race and don't like the idea of separate "systems" for different users of the track--its all one club. I have no idea about the budget for BAB8, but when I organized the last club race event for the Quebec chapter we generated a pretty tidy profit. So the inference that racers are a drain really should not be made.
But who has the detailed accounting for BAB8 and can all the chapter directors--me included- see it?
And just remember, all this talk is great but who is phoning track managment to negotiate for us the dates and the down payments?
what about mosport or tremblant with trillium chapter? or other chapters? or even other clubs (porsche/audi)?
It appears to me that boston has more than enough members/reach to fill it's roster. I hate to say it again, but for the price of BAB7, I expected a bit more. The event just could not manage the amount of people present. I had issues with instructors, had issues in the paddock, had issues with the track, had issues with the meal, had issues with almost everything. The event went EXCEPTIONALLY well for the amount of people present, but imho, it's just too much to manage (atleast this way). It's nice to say "I was at tremblant bab7"... but otherwise there are better deals out there(as far as driving schools go).
The main reason why I'm keeping a window open for BAB8 is because Emre told me "organizers" are aware about these problems... and hopefully BAB8 will be a bit different.
Otherwise I agree 100%, I prefer smaller, simpler, efficiently organized driving schools.(summer drift was a gem!). If the crowning event of the BMWQuebec chapter are like BAB7, you will end up losing members.
The news from Calabogie are not that good, so we should not expect an event at this new location in 2006. The track is graded but not asphalted. Even if the tarmac get layered by the end of June (after the ground has firmed up), then it takes another 3 months for the asphalt to heat cycle. So, no event in 2006. Perhaps another Spring Fling in May in Sanair and another one at Mecaglisse. Small events are succesfull and easy to organize. Both attracted a lot of attention and allowed us to register new members. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on instructorship should be made though for SpringFling. The event could be used to start training 2 or 3 new instructors.
All in all, we need a few event chairs. Who wants to organize, manage and actively promote SpringFling? BMW Fest East? Trillium/Quebec event? I volunteer to keep organizing BAB8. Does Phil want to work on BMW Fest East for our chapter? Emre, would you like to do the Trillium/Quebec DE. Do Karin/Henry/Cherif want to do SpringFling? Anyone else want to jump in?
I have no idea about the budget for BAB8, but when I organized the last club race event for the Quebec chapter we generated a pretty tidy profit. So the inference that racers are a drain really should not be made.Phil,
As I mentioned earlier...BAB-7 was VERY different from previous BAB events. In this case, some of the costs of the club race were, in fact, borne by the students.
When the Quebec Chapter has hosted these combined events, we always made sure that ALL the additional costs associated with the club race were covered by the racers (hence the high cost of entry for racers). In the case of BAB-7, that didn't happen and some students were rightly upset.
Emre
what about mosport or tremblant with trillium chapter? or other chapters? or even other clubs (porsche/audi)?Doing events at faraway tracks like Shannonville and Mosport never seems to work well for us. There is a (very) small core of dedicated track junkies that are willing to make the commitment to attend...but the vast majority of the membership does is not. So, these collaborations never really work out. If we make a deal with Trillium to go 50/50 on a Mosport event and only 10-15 Quebec students show up...that doesn't really work.
As for other clubs, we've discussed things with our local PCA chapter and they're not willing to play ball. Audi is very interested in co-hosting a Tremblant event, as is Trillium and the Boston Chapter. If we get our 3 Tremblant weekends next summer, then we can collaborate with all 3 clubs.
The main reason why I'm keeping a window open for BAB8 is because Emre told me "organizers" are aware about these problems...and hopefully BAB8 will be a bit different.Basically, the Quebec Chapter had almost no role in BAB-7 (a very long story). After we got the dates, Boston took over and we only regained some minimal control at the last minute. This is not how these events have been run in the past and it's not how they'll be run in the future. The Boston guys have indicated their understanding of our position and we've made it clear that we'll only share our dates with them if we have equal input.
Otherwise I agree 100%, I prefer smaller, simpler, efficiently organized driving schools.(summer drift was a gem!). If the crowning event of the BMWQuebec chapter are like BAB7, you will end up losing members.The problem is that the cost of running Tremblant school is orders of magnitude higher than an event like SummerDrift. And the financial risks to the Club are severe...one or two badly attended Tremblant events could literally bankrupt us. The only way to make it "small and simple" would be to do what the Ferrari Club does and charge everyone $1000 to attend.
Realistically, even if you cut every possible corner...you're still looking at 65-70 students to break even. If you break the groups up properly (something which we were not able to do at BAB-7) there should be no problem with 30-35 cars per group on that circuit. It just takes someone who really knows the students...has first-hand experience with them...to make the assignments. Then, the chief instructor has to be quick to reassign students as necessary throughout the event.
I can say with certainty that this will happen at future BAB events.
Emre
Doing events at faraway tracks like Shannonville and Mosport never seems to work well for us. There is a (very) small core of dedicated track junkies that are willing to make the commitment to attend...but the vast majority of the membership does is not. So, these collaborations never really work out. If we make a deal with Trillium to go 50/50 on a Mosport event and only 10-15 Quebec students show up...that doesn't really work.
I don't agree 100%.
Tremblant is not really THAT close to montreal. It still requires finding an hotel to spend minimum 1 night(2 is makes more sense) and staying there the whole weekend. It's almoast a 2 hour drive from montreal. The track is SUPERLATIVE, the area is beautifull... BAB7 = 525$
Mosport is a 4 1/2 hour drive of perfectly flat highway. Set in beautifull Toronto outskirt, GORGEOUS track, awesome facility. Mosport Dayze = 380$
YOU would have to be CRAZY to consider tremblant and not mosport. Even if you are from Quebec. Matter of fact... 100% I will go to mosport dayze next year... while I'm not sure about tremblant. Understand what I mean? (BTW there was a club race as well).
Like Bmwqc said, I always wondered at these "costs" with some perplexity. I can't believe it requires 70K for a 2 day driving school... even at tremblant.
It is what is so great about belonging to the BMW club. Every chapter uses different tracks, and members from one chapter can attend other events at other tracks with other chapters. When Trillium organizes and event at Mosport, very few Quebec chapter drivers will attend. And very few Quebec drivers attended Trillium's event at tremblant too. Same applies to us when we organize an event at Tremblant, you do not see Trillium drivers. I believe it is called the lemming effect. And it is not only with us, this also occures with big chapters in the PCA (NER looses money at Tremblant, while Rennsport is sold out, both being PCA chapters). Boston chapter and White Mountain chapter also have the same problem.
If we decided to set-up an event at Mosport, then we have to make sure we get at least 75 drivers from our chapter because very few Trillium members will attend as it is not their chapter. We barely have 25 track enthusiasts in the Quebec chapter, I then doubt it will be enough to break even at Mosport. And after estimating what we have in the club's bank account, I believe we go bankrupt and close the chapter.
It is what is so great about belonging to the BMW club. Every chapter uses different tracks, and members from one chapter can attend other events at other tracks with other chapters. When Trillium organizes and event at Mosport, very few Quebec chapter drivers will attend. And very few Quebec drivers attended Trillium's event at tremblant too. Same applies to us when we organize an event at Tremblant, you do not see Trillium drivers. I believe it is called the lemming effect. And it is not only with us, but this also occures with big chapters in the PCA (NER looses money at Tremblant, while Rennsport is sold out, both being PCA chapters). Boston chapter and White Mountain chapter also have the same problem.
I know that trillium did an event at tremblant this year. And from what transpired at mosport dayze... they lost a lot of money, and it seems unlikely they will come again next year. I think the support of BMWquebec chapter would have helped them A LOT. (unfortunately, I understant that we were already busy with boston and they did not make much effort to reach any of us). The problem is that BMWquebec must depend on another chapter at the moment...
But let's say we need 80-90 students ideally for tremblant or mosport. that makes 30 students each for 3 clubs, or 45 students each for 2 clubs. At mosport dayze I believe we were 7-8 from quebec... and it never even was advertised.
I agree that it's AWESOME that the membership in one chapter is valid trhoughtout america. But that doesn't mean it must be the ONLY reason for being a BMWquebec member. I'd love to see a superb quebec club crowning event at tremblant... I understand everyone is real busy though, lol. Planning is everything... especially since BMWquebec doesn't have the "mass" to do huge events on it's own right now(that's what I understand).
Losing money at one event is okay, as long as there are profits at other events(or whatever) to make up for the loses.
I'm trying to get 2-3 friends to become member for next year.
One major challenge with the Trillium chapter working with the Quebec chapter last year was that Trillium has different regulations especially concerning which vehicles are allowed on track. They want 100% street legal, licensed, and insured cars in all run groups including instructor run groups. We felt that was unnecessarily restrictive and would eliminate some of our best instructors.
I hope that this year Trillium will be more permissive and we'll be able to collaborate with them again.
As far as I heard, last year only one person from Trillium was against following our rules on our turf. The other directors were obviously "a bit" deceived that the joint event did not go thru. In 2006, that person who was against following our rules is not in duty anymore. That means that Trillium sees no problem welcoming un-insured and un-plated cars when we host a joint event at le Circuit. I am pretty sure that we can do great things together. Obviously, we will need to discuss terms and conditions first and agree on them.
Windows up and use of the turn signals will be in discussion too... But I trully believe that it is time that after a few dark years, we do things together again.
I don't agree 100%.I'm sorry you don't agree...but facts are facts. The vast majority of Quebec Chapter members do not seem to willing to drive 5 hours to Mosport or 3 hours to Shannonville, as evidence by their very low turnout at these events. Whether you agree or not is kind of irrelevant since the facts speak for themselves.
We've never had a good Quebec Chapter turnout at Mosport or Shannonville...except for a moderate number of instructors (who don't pay and therefore don't help the bottom line) and the small handful of decdicated track junkies who seem to be everywhere ;)
When we do a Tremblant event, we can count on at least 30-40 local students to show up. At Mosport we're lucky to get 8-10 and at Shannonville we're lucky to get 3-4.
Emre
I'd love to see a superb quebec club crowning event at tremblant...We have done solo events at Tremblant in the past. But we could only afford to do so at the cut-price weekday rates. There's no way a club of maybe 250 members can take on a 3-day, $50-60K event. The risk is too high.
Again, we've tentatively been offered 3 weekends at Tremblant next summer. I'll call Vince tomorrow to see if they're willing to let us book them now. Depending on how many (and which) weekends we get, we've got Boston, Trillium, and Audi lining up to do joint events with us. As long as we set the terms (and we will) then there shouldn't be any problem.
Emre
I'm sorry you don't agree...but facts are facts. The vast majority of Quebec Chapter members do not seem to willing to drive 5 hours to Mosport or 3 hours to Shannonville, as evidence by their very low turnout at these events. Whether you agree or not is kind of irrelevant since the facts speak for themselves.
We've never had a good Quebec Chapter turnout at Mosport or Shannonville...except for a moderate number of instructors (who don't pay and therefore don't help the bottom line) and the small handful of decdicated track junkies who seem to be everywhere ;)
When we do a Tremblant event, we can count on at least 30-40 local students to show up. At Mosport we're lucky to get 8-10 and at Shannonville we're lucky to get 3-4.
Emre
I don't agree because I've kind of witnessed the numbers myself...
At mosport dayze we were 6-7 BMWQuebec members. And the event was NEVER advertised anywhere (I only posted a quick post on MR inquireing on it)
Now you are telling me me that IF the event would have been properly organized and advertised and supported by the BMWQuebec Club, you could hope at best for 2-3 extra candidates???? While a tremblant event would generate 30 more? Something doesn't add up... Or people have been brainwashed against mosport/trillium.
In anycase, I will be at mosport next year. The event was fantastic(anyone who was there can confirm). And It's absolutely *not to be missed*. The trip is a breeze and the track is WELL worth it.
Nano, I have been organizing events for our chapter for as long as the club exists. The numbers expressed by Emre are the sad reality. But let's make a deal. Our chapter will host an event at Mosport, and whatever deficit we are gonna collect, we take the money from your pocket. Many chapters are loosing money when hosting events. We are lucky to have always broken even, or barely make small profits. We have been carefull at selecting venues, dates and registration fees. 5 years ago, we would be only 6 drivers from Montreal at Le Circuit (including instructors). Can you believe that?
At mosport dayze we were 6-7 BMWQuebec members. And the event was NEVER advertised anywhere (I only posted a quick post on MR inquireing on it)Trillium's annual "Mosport Dayze" events are very well known and very well advertized. Anyone with any interest in this type of thing knows about them...so I would disagree with the statement that the event was "never advertized anywhere."
If you mean that we did not promote the event in Quebec, then I suppose that's true. But neither does Trillium promote our events with their members. All the chapters have reciprocity, but that doesn't mean we aggressively promote each other's events. If Trillium had actually sent us an e-mail invitation to distribute to our members, we would gladly have done so. Similarly, Trillium could easily have posted here on our forum. They didn't even do any of this for their own (undersold) Tremblant event...let alone Mosport.
It's not our job to advertize other people's events. If Trillium wants members from other chapters to attend, then it's their responsibility to get the word out.
Now you are telling me me that IF the event would have been properly organized and advertised and supported by the BMWQuebec Club, you could hope at best for 2-3 extra candidates????I'm not sure I understand why you feel one chapter should go out of their way to "promote and support" an event that's completely run by another chapter. We don't have any stake in the event. If Trillium wants to post here, they can. If they ask us to distribute an invitation to our members, we will. So, I can't agree with your argument that the event wasn't "properly" advertized. You can't expect us to heavily promote an event we have no stake in when we have our own calender of events to fill and a small core of volunteers that's already overwhelmed trying to do so.
In anycase, I will be at mosport next year. The event was fantastic(anyone who was there can confirm). And It's absolutely *not to be missed*. The trip is a breeze and the track is WELL worth it.Hey, you're preaching to the choir! I would not have missed Mosport Dayze if I didn't have a scheduling conflict. I love that track and don't find the trip particularly onerous. After all, Andrei and I drove all the way the hell to Florida in a crippled rice rocket just to spend a couple of days driving a rental car around Sebring! Unfortunately, not everyone shares our enthusiasm.
Emre
Lee
I never said quebec should host an event at mosport. I said, "what about mosport or tremblant with trillium chapter?" as in some sort of reciprocal partnership
Emre
I found out about mosport dayze by PURE chance. And you would be surprised how FEW students at mosport even knew that tremblant EXISTED (actually, only the instructors I talked to knew). Something somewhere isn't working out, both for trillium and for quebec.
Both have to gain from a healthy partnership for these major events. I don't see anything wrong with promoting their events, organizing and getting as many people as possible to get to mosport. I for one, would have appreciated it as I DIDN'T HAVE A CLUE about mosport (actually YOU and Lee told me to go :)).
http://www.montrealracing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242853
otherwise it's wishful thinking. Let's keep with smaller events, I love those as well. Let's build some critical mass on those first.
my 2c
bmwqc
11-14-2005, 12:53 AM
Do Karin/Henry/Cherif want to do SpringFling? Anyone else want to jump in?
I would be available to take care of either Sanair or Mecaglisse. The chapter execs must first provide the parameters - at this point in time, mainly dates (make sure they do not conflict with other events).
Hi Henry. When the directors will let us know about the possible available dates for Tremblant, perhaps we should meet and then dispatch who wants to do what. Perhaps Karin wants to keep on organizing SummerDrift at Mecaglisse as she did in 2005. SpringFling in Sanair was easy to organize, and if you want to take over, I will give you all the help you need. It could be a repetition of the 2005 event with a Show'n'Shine.
Obviously, whoever is interested to help organize is more than welcome to step ahead. The more volunteers, the easier for everyone.
1- Boston will co-host at Tremblant.
2- Trillium seems to be interested in a co-hosted event too.
3- Audi-NEQ is interested.
4- What's up with BMW Fest East? 3 days? 6 days? BMW Canada support?
The next step is to get available dates at Le Circuit. Some of those events will take place on weekends and others on week days. Perhaps week days would be great during the summer vacations. It would be great to have a big event in June.
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