Winter Ice at Mecaglisse

[bmwqc]

Winter Ice at Mecaglisse
The event is run by the Eastern Canada Chapter with help from the NEQ (Northeast) Chapter of Audi Club of North America (ACNA) and the BMW Club of Quebec.
On behalf of the Eastern Canada and NEQ Chapters of Audi Club of North America and the BMW Club of Quebec, eventmasters Wendy and Alan Bellavance invite you to a 2 day winter driving school on February 2 and 3 (Saturday and Sunday), with an additional open track day for instructors on February 1 (Friday). The School will be held at the Mecaglisse complex near St. Donat, Quebec, approx. 1 ¼ hour north of Montreal.

Each driver must complete this registration form even if you are sharing a car.
A hot 3 course meal will be served at lunchtime each day of the event in the chalet by the fire. Cost of the lunches is included in the event fee (participants 2 lunches, instructors 3 lunches).

Entry fee:
- Student (2 days, Feb 2 , 3) : $225.00 CAN

- Instructor, must be certified by Canada Chapter or NEQ,
(Friday track day, Feb. 1, plus instruct Feb 2, 3): $120.00 CAN

Lunches: (Hot 3 course sit-down meal, $22.00 CAN, approx.

- Friday Feb. 1:.................................22.00 CAN
- Saturday Feb. 2:.............................22.00 CAN
- Sunday Feb. 3:...............................22.00 CAN

Total student fee with 2 lunches:.....$269.00 CAN
Total instructor fee with 3 lunches:..$186.00 CAN
Mecaglisse has the most complete winter driving site in Eastern North America, with several driving courses which are iced regularly to insure perfect ice driving surfaces.

Information about the Mecaglisse complex can be obtained at: www.mecaglisse.com (http://www.mecaglisse.com/) and info on accomodations can be obtained at:www.mecaglisse.com/en/partenaires/partenaire-02.htm (http://www.mecaglisse.com/en/partenaires/partenaire-02.htm)

More detailed information regarding the event will be sent to participants by e-mail.

There will be no refunds for cancellation after January 21, 2008. All cancellations prior to January 21 will be charged a $60.00 CAN processing fee. Cancellations must be by e-mail to the eventmaster listed in the event info.


Notes:
- The fee will be deducted from your credit card in Canadian Dollars. US participants fees will be
converted at the exchange rate used by their credit card company, which is usually quite favourable.

If you are not a member of the Audi Club of North America (ACNA) or BMW Club of Quebec, then please join the ACNA by logging on to the ACNA website at: www.audiclubna.org (http://www.audiclubna.org/) or contact the eventmaster, Alan Bellavance at: a.bellavance@citenet.net


Questions ?
Contact Alan Bellavance via email at: a.bellavance@citenet.net after December 16th 2007.

Max. Participants: 45
Sign up before:
Tue, 22-Jan-2008 19:00

To register:
https://www.karelo.com/enter_res.php?&BID=262&CL=EN

[johnmdanskin]

OK. I'm registered. Is one of the hotels more recommended than the others?

[Hugo]

The closest is the Hotel of LA RESERVE ski resort. 10 min from the track.

http://www.ski-la-reserve.com/hotelmontcalm/en/hotel/index.php

[sebdavid]

Does anyone know who are the instructors and what kind of techniques will be covered during the course?

The course offered by Mecaglisse is only a one-day course, and costs approx. 500$, so this seems like absolutely exceptional value, but I want to make sure rally-and-snow-specific techniques such as left-foot braking, scandinavian flick, skid control, pendulum turns, etc. are covered, as they are in the Mecaglisse program.

I am very eager to register to this if the above is covered, I'd be bringing my mom (one more member for the Club, whoohooo!) and her WRX...

[bmwqc]

I suppose this is a safety school, not a race school. But you might want to contact Alan (the event master) for the details.

a.bellavance@citenet.net



Does anyone know who are the instructors and what kind of techniques will be covered during the course?

The course offered by Mecaglisse is only a one-day course, and costs approx. 500$, so this seems like absolutely exceptional value, but I want to make sure rally-and-snow-specific techniques such as left-foot braking, scandinavian flick, skid control, pendulum turns, etc. are covered, as they are in the Mecaglisse program.

I am very eager to register to this if the above is covered, I'd be bringing my mom (one more member for the Club, whoohooo!) and her WRX...

[SpeedTT]

but I want to make sure rally-and-snow-specific techniques such as left-foot braking, scandinavian flick, skid control, pendulum turns, etc. are covered, as they are in the Mecaglisse program.

I am very eager to register to this if the above is covered, I'd be bringing my mom (one more member for the Club, whoohooo!) and her WRX...
Salut Sébastien
Cette année je n'y serai pas ( ni comme instructeur ni comme observateur) mais je peux te dire a quoi ressemblait la formule de l'an dernier.


La majorité des instructeurs sur place étaient des instructeur du club Audi.
Le week-end était composé de séries d'exercices différents à chaque jours et ce sans compter la théorie qui était données par Frank dans le chalet.

Les instructeurs étaient regroupés à 4 sites différents et les étudiants se déplaçaient par groupe d'un site à l'autre. les étudiants passaient près d'une heure a chaque site et allaient sur la piste a tour de rôle et refaisaient l'exercice une fois terminé.

Voici un exemple de la première journée

Groupe 1: Skid pad. Un cercle de glace ou l'on doit apprendre a maîtriser le skide pad et découvrir la limite du sous virage ( 2 exercice à faire)

Groupe 2: Le slalom. Toujours sur une belle glace, passer entre les cône a vitesse constante 40 à 50 Km/h ( 2 ième vitesse) en gardant le contrôle

Groupe 3: Le pendule. Circuit de piste en boucle on l'on pratique cette merveilleuse technique pas facile a faire au début

Groupe 4: essais sur piste. Une petite partie du circuit est utilisé afin de s'éclatter. Vous verrez a quel point une petite dénivellation sur la piste a un impact très grand...

[Turbo_Bimmer]

but I want to make sure rally-and-snow-specific techniques such as left-foot braking, scandinavian flick, skid control, pendulum turns, etc. are covered, as they are in the Mecaglisse program.

.

Hi sebdavid, you can contact those people if you want to practice what you said above.
http://rallyedefi.com/
Usually they only have one school per winter, and it was in december, but at least they can give you more information on the content of the course.

[johnmdanskin]

The closest is the Hotel of LA RESERVE ski resort. 10 min from the track.

http://www.ski-la-reserve.com/hotelmontcalm/en/hotel/index.php

OK. THat's where I'll be. Thank you Hugo! I hope to see some of you there so we can show those audis that 4wd isn't necessary. (ha ha, at least we can provide them with entertainment.)

-john

[SpeedTT]

En faisant le ménage de mes tiroirs j'ai trouvé la planification de l'an passé

Samedi
9:00-9:15 Arrivée-inscription
9:15-10-15 Classe
10:30-12:15 Exercice 1 soit:
groupe a) Skid Pad
groupe b) Slalom-Braking
groupe c) auto-cross
12:15-13:15 Dîner
13:15-15:00 Exercice 2 soit:
groupe b) Skid Pad
groupe c) Slalom-Braking
groupe a) auto-cross
15:00-16:45 Exercice 3 soit:
groupe c) Skid Pad
groupe a) Slalom-Braking
groupe b) auto-cross

Dimanche
9:00-9:45 Classe
9:45-11:45 exercice 1 soit:
groupe a) Exercice sur la piste #1
groupe b) Braking in turn & Threshold braking
groupe c) Pendulum
11:45-12:45 Dîner
12:45-14:45 Exercice 2 soit:
groupe b)Exercice sur la piste #1
groupe c) Braking in turn & Threshold braking
groupe a) Pendulum
14:45-16:45 Exercice 3 soit:
groupe c)Exercice sur la piste #1
groupe a) Braking in turn & Threshold braking
groupe b) Pendulum

Il y avait trois groupes de 4 instructeurs a chaque poste

[johnmdanskin]

Translated to English, you found this in your drawers, which could have been your underpants, which could mean that you pulled it out of your bottom. But of course this isn't what happened. I'm trying to get back to work. Really.

Thank you for the prev schedule Percy!

[sebdavid]

And in general, what is the experience of instructors as far as snow/ice/winter driving is concerned? Not that I have any doubts, but I would like to determine whether to go to this event, or to the Mecaglisse course. If one is more oriented towards rallying techniques, that's where I want to be. Although if John goes to the Audi event, that could change my mind, I want to know if he's as witty in 'real-time' as here on the forums...

Turbo_Bimmer, thanks for the link, but I saw no information regarding a driving class there... am I missing something?

[Turbo_Bimmer]

Turbo_Bimmer, thanks for the link, but I saw no information regarding a driving class there... am I missing something?

I agree that it's not easy to find for a first time on their site. Here is the link for the december registration form:
http://rallyedefi.com/rallyx/RallyeCross2008InscriptionPilotageCoPilotage.pdf
this one was for the december school. They are supposed to have another school on Jan 19th. But if the snow continues to melt like that, I'm not sure what they will do.
It is not a school with one to one instructor though. Instructors jump from cars to cars, and tell you how to do things and you practice while they watch, and so on.
Send an email to B.Gilles. He's the president of the club. He will tell you more about the school.
bgilleslacroix@rallyedefi.com

[Wabbit]

And in general, what is the experience of instructors as far as snow/ice/winter driving is concerned? Not that I have any doubts, but I would like to determine whether to go to this event, or to the Mecaglisse course. If one is more oriented towards rallying techniques, that's where I want to be.

Club Audi has beed doing this school at Tim O'Neals in New Hampshire for atleast 5 years, but added Mecaglisse 2 years ago, so they could have a second school each season, and one in the Montreal area.

Most of the Instructors teach both winter and summer, and the majority have more than 5 years exerience, with some coming from a Rally background. I myself have been teaching Winter Driving for over 10 years with Motorsport Club of Ottawa, BMW HPDE for 6 years and Audi HPDE and Winter Schools for 2 years.

You will get to practise left foot bracking on a 300ft skidpad, along with learning to balance the car on the throttel.

There is a short kidney bean loop, where we will teach you to flick the car around, so you can keep the going where you want, while you slow the car by going sideways. Standard Rally driving.

On the main track you will develope braking and corning technigues to improve your general driving, but if you show you have the skill, your instrutor will push you more to help you find your limits.

Last year I had Turbo Bimmer as a Student at the MCO Advanced Winter School, and we were just getting into the groove, when the fuel pump stopped working.

Hope to instruct some of you a Mecaglisse this winter.

Bennett

[SpeedTT]

Changement au programme... tout porte à croire que j'y serai encore cette année.:D

[sebdavid]

j'y serai certainement aussi.

[sebdavid]

That's it, I'm registered. I also registered my mom as a new Associate member of our Club, and she will be at WinterIce as well (I'll try to convince her for other events); we will be sharing a blue WRX with yellow stickers on it (hard to miss). Whoever goes, come see us and say hi!

Ça y est, je suis inscrit! J'ai aussi inscrit ma petite maman comme membre Associé de notre Club, et elle sera à WinterIce aussi (en attendant de l'attirer à d'autres évènements); nous partagerons sa voiture, une WRX bleue avec des autocollants jaunes (dur à rater). Si vous venez, passez nous dire bonjour!

[Emre]

And in general, what is the experience of instructors as far as snow/ice/winter driving is concerned?I've instructed at the NEQ winter school in the past. The instructors are all very experienced in winter driving and many of them have rally experience. As for what you learn, it really all depends on the skills and interests of the student. The event is technically supposed to be a winter safety school. For some students, that's exactly what it is. With other students, you can go quite a bit beyond that.

With motivated students, I've worked extensively on left-foot braking as well as pendulum turns and the Scandinavian flick. I've worked with students on the skidpad to do lap after lap completely sideways (not as easy as it sounds...especially in an A6 wagon with auto tranny and non-defeatable traction control, for instance).

Basically, some students are there to learn how to drive tidy and neat without slipping the car under icy conditions. Others are there to make the car dance. You work with the student to ensure that they get whatever they're looking for out of the event.

[sebdavid]

Good to know. I want to dance, but first I need to make sure I can walk properly. :-)

[johnmdanskin]

Good to know. I want to dance, but first I need to make sure I can walk properly. :-)


It's looking like I'm going to get all the ice driving training I need on the way there. 8 hours in rain gradually transitioning into wintry mix and then snow.

I hope I remember why I signed up sometime tomorrow. :confused::rolleyes::eek::D

[sebdavid]

Well, I don't know if John can justify his 11 hours of infernal driving, but I have to says I had a really good time at this event.

Everybody should try an ice driving event like this, it is incredible how much you can learn. And it should be a two-day event, because I really only started to 'get it' and have fun on the second half of the second day, and I don't think I was alone in that (in fact, most students probably could have used another day of practice).

I went with my mom and we shared her WRX.

I'll give a quick account of the event as I saw it, for people potentially interested in next year's:

After the 1-hour theory session in the first morning, we were divided in three groups, each doing a different exercise. Two cars went on at a time, each with an instructor, the other students were watching. A little bit of cold-then-hot going on as we stayed outside for 15 minutes waiting for our turn, then inside the warm car for the exercise.

The first day (especially the skidpad) was humbling, and honestly not as much fun as I thought it was going to be, maybe due to the fact I was driving a completely alien car that didn't react at all like mine on snow/ice. But it would prove useful, as we got better and better at initiating and controlling slides, as well as reducing and coming out of the understeer (which is the number one party breaker in a car, as everybody knows).

For the second day, we were divided in two groups only in order to get a lot more practise and seat-time. The first half of the day was devoted to the pendulum turn. We started to try and initiate it under braking (not much success among students in my group) on one track, then went to the second bigger track to put it a little bit more into practice (quite a bit easier for some reason in my case).

After that morning, I had fun, I had the feeling that I had learned quite a bit, but I didn't like it nearly as much as pavement in the summer, and I felt I wasn't nearly as good at it (which was true, and besides on ice it show even more when you make the tiniest mistake; brutal on the ego if you have one), so it was a little frustrating. Was it worth it? Yes, of course. Would I keep on doing ice events? Probably not, or maybe I would have gone the next year, but I wasn't 'hooked'.

Then came the second half of the day. We were using the big track, which was divided into two halves. We started on the half we'd used before, but reversed, which was like learning a completely different track. And I was starting to get the hang of it, initiating nice drifts, getting a good rythm going for my pendulum turns, etc.

Then we got to use the second, up to now unknown part of the big track, and that was even more fun, with a couple tight hairpins forcing you to enter them completely sideways. Huge angles, you needed to be confident to go through with a nice rythm and quell the understeer.

The most fun I had was when they opened up the whole track at the end of the day. I got better than I thought possible, and I was having a hoot on that track.

The second half of the second day was spent pretty much entirely inside the car, with only a driver switch to take care of once in a while in my case. We got lots more seat time and that's when I really got hooked because I got the right rythm and feeling. I still have a LOT to learn, lots of room for improvement, but now I know what mistakes I'm making, I can analyse them and not repeat them over and over, so with more seat time I can improve a lot.

My mom had fun too, she didn't enjoy the second half of the second day quite as much, as she got up on the snowbank relatively hard and that got her a little scared. She will be back next year, though, and then she'll be able to build on what she learned, improve a lot and get more confidence. She impressed me greatly with her finesse and how she could control the car once it go sliding. Go mom! She was among those who could have used a third day, however.

Sharing a car is OK, but you will get less seat time. Not in the exercises where two cars go at a time, in those seat time was based on driver, not on car, therefore we got as much as anyone. But when all cars were on track at the same time, we got half as much seat time as the others, because we had to stop and switch while they could just keep on going. So use you own car if you can, I recommend a manual AWD one if possible though.

I'm glad I used my mom's car. In the M3 oversteer is very easy to initiate and you just need to control it, understeer is basically not a problem. Driving an AWD car allowed me to learn more and that way I didn't hold up anyone. I think a FWD car was fine too, but John'll have to speak for himself on that.

In conclusion, I'm hooked, I like ice/snow as much as I like pavement now, and I WILL go to Mecaglisse's lapping day at the end of February to get more practice and have a lot of fun.

We had a great event, weather was close to perfect, lots of snow fell before Saturday which meant very soft snowbanks (we made very good use of them, actually) for everyone to save their bumpers. Bring a tow rope, as cars get stuck on a regular basis.

I would like to thank the Audi boys (both the club and the company) for setting up such a great event. I got to see an RS4 play on the snow, and Audi brought over an R8 winter beater for us to gawk at (that thing is NOT made for the snow).

[Emre]

As in every other form of motorsport, having the right tires is critical. Without studded snows, driving hard on sheer ice is kind of frustrating. With good snows and an AWD turbo saloon, things get a bit more fun...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5439468480040196001&q=acna+winter&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Personally, I learned more from doing winter driving events than just about any other type of event. Everything happens at such low speeds and you can drive up and over the limit for hours at a time. Then when the car gets sideways in the dry one day, it's not such a big deal. You know instinctively what to do.

[SpeedTT]

Il faut aussi souligner la qualité du groupe de participants. Un petit nombre de participants ( 18) nous a permi d'accorder un peu plus de temps à chaque pilote que l'année dernière.
Well, I don't know if John can justify his 11 hours of infernal driving, but I have to says I had a really good time at this event.

Everybody should try an ice driving event like this, it is incredible how much you can learn. And it should be a two-day event, because I really only started to 'get it' and have fun on the second half of the second day, and I don't think I was alone in that (in fact, most students probably could have used another day of practice).

I went with my mom and we shared her WRX.

I'll give a quick account of the event as I saw it, for people potentially interested in next year's:

After the 1-hour theory session in the first morning, we were divided in three groups, each doing a different exercise. Two cars went on at a time, each with an instructor, the other students were watching. A little bit of cold-then-hot going on as we stayed outside for 15 minutes waiting for our turn, then inside the warm car for the exercise.

The first day (especially the skidpad) was humbling, and honestly not as much fun as I thought it was going to be, maybe due to the fact I was driving a completely alien car that didn't react at all like mine on snow/ice. But it would prove useful, as we got better and better at initiating and controlling slides, as well as reducing and coming out of the understeer (which is the number one party breaker in a car, as everybody knows).

For the second day, we were divided in two groups only in order to get a lot more practise and seat-time. The first half of the day was devoted to the pendulum turn. We started to try and initiate it under braking (not much success among students in my group) on one track, then went to the second bigger track to put it a little bit more into practice (quite a bit easier for some reason in my case).

After that morning, I had fun, I had the feeling that I had learned quite a bit, but I didn't like it nearly as much as pavement in the summer, and I felt I wasn't nearly as good at it (which was true, and besides on ice it show even more when you make the tiniest mistake; brutal on the ego if you have one), so it was a little frustrating. Was it worth it? Yes, of course. Would I keep on doing ice events? Probably not, or maybe I would have gone the next year, but I wasn't 'hooked'.

Then came the second half of the day. We were using the big track, which was divided into two halves. We started on the half we'd used before, but reversed, which was like learning a completely different track. And I was starting to get the hang of it, initiating nice drifts, getting a good rythm going for my pendulum turns, etc.

Then we got to use the second, up to now unknown part of the big track, and that was even more fun, with a couple tight hairpins forcing you to enter them completely sideways. Huge angles, you needed to be confident to go through with a nice rythm and quell the understeer.

The most fun I had was when they opened up the whole track at the end of the day. I got better than I thought possible, and I was having a hoot on that track.

The second half of the second day was spent pretty much entirely inside the car, with only a driver switch to take care of once in a while in my case. We got lots more seat time and that's when I really got hooked because I got the right rythm and feeling. I still have a LOT to learn, lots of room for improvement, but now I know what mistakes I'm making, I can analyse them and not repeat them over and over, so with more seat time I can improve a lot.

My mom had fun too, she didn't enjoy the second half of the second day quite as much, as she got up on the snowbank relatively hard and that got her a little scared. She will be back next year, though, and then she'll be able to build on what she learned, improve a lot and get more confidence. She impressed me greatly with her finesse and how she could control the car once it go sliding. Go mom! She was among those who could have used a third day, however.

Sharing a car is OK, but you will get less seat time. Not in the exercises where two cars go at a time, in those seat time was based on driver, not on car, therefore we got as much as anyone. But when all cars were on track at the same time, we got half as much seat time as the others, because we had to stop and switch while they could just keep on going. So use you own car if you can, I recommend a manual AWD one if possible though.

I'm glad I used my mom's car. In the M3 oversteer is very easy to initiate and you just need to control it, understeer is basically not a problem. Driving an AWD car allowed me to learn more and that way I didn't hold up anyone. I think a FWD car was fine too, but John'll have to speak for himself on that.

In conclusion, I'm hooked, I like ice/snow as much as I like pavement now, and I WILL go to Mecaglisse's lapping day at the end of February to get more practice and have a lot of fun.

We had a great event, weather was close to perfect, lots of snow fell before Saturday which meant very soft snowbanks (we made very good use of them, actually) for everyone to save their bumpers. Bring a tow rope, as cars get stuck on a regular basis.

I would like to thank the Audi boys (both the club and the company) for setting up such a great event. I got to see an RS4 play on the snow, and Audi brought over an R8 winter beater for us to gawk at (that thing is NOT made for the snow).

[SpeedTT]

En passant il y a un article d'Éric Lefrançois dans la presse du 4 février (cahier Auto). Il témoigne de son expérience à Mécaglisse et des coûts associés a ce type d'activité ( À chaque fois les plus téméraires entrent en contact avec les bancs de neige qui sont plus ou moins souples). Plus la vitesse est grande lors de l'impact et plus les banc de neige sont dure plus les risques de dommages sont élevés. Quelques pilotes ont décrochés certaines attaches des enveloppes de pares-chocs, et d'autres en les tout simplement brisés.

À la fin d'un week-end semblable il y a toujours des gens qui reviennent blessés... blessés à leur amour propre:cool:

[johnmdanskin]

I had pretty much the same impression as Sebastien, but maybe more fun more quickly except on the skid pad where fwd cars are just stupid.

There were a few sessions where we didn't' get that much time because the same few people had to be towed out of snowbanks repeatedly. There were some other sessions where we got phenomenal driving time.

I was able to get the pendulum going, although I'd have to take a few more swings than the 4wd audis to get going. No power oversteer option. The problem with the fwd car is there is no way to add power to the equation once you are sideways. You just slow down. If you try to add power the car just straightens out and you are back into understeer.

I was able to keep up with the audis mostly taking road racing lines with just a little bit of tail out, some good drift and just using the emergency brake a little for those hairpins.

Driving to the event was horrific. I was expecting under 8 hours (get there before 11. It took 11+ hours (get there at 2:15am). Rain, freezing rain, snow over ice, snow, freezing rain, rain, freezing rain, slush over ice, snow, more snow. Lots of transitions. I picked up a nice fishtail between two armco barriers somewhere near quebec (in a straight line under power), but all was OK except my nerves.

On the way back last night I beat my nav system by 45 minutes including getting gas and customs. Luckily I had no official recognition of this feat. I stayed awake by imagining that the roads were wet and the temperature was below freezing. This kept my lines nice and smooth, just in case.

I really recommend this event for whoever. You can't be too advanced to have a good time doing the pendulum 4 times between turns -on-purpose-.

There was literally no-one there in a rwd car, so I don't know how that would have gone. The audis are -amazing- on ice.

The organizers set up a very nice lunch as well, which is appreciated when you've been standing around outside in the snow for hours.


john

[Emre]

No power oversteer option. The problem with the fwd car is there is no way to add power to the equation once you are sideways. You just slow down. If you try to add power the car just straightens out and you are back into understeer.Did you try left-foot braking? That usually pays big dividends in FWD and AWD cars, especially on loose/slippy surfaces. Not exactly "power oversteer," but it's as close as you're going to get with a FWD platform.


The audis are -amazing- on ice.I would be more impressed with Audis if they relied more on mechanical diffs rather that electronic stability control that cuts power and cooks the brakes to keep the cars tracking in slippy conditions. When I was in student cars last winter, I found modern Audis just want to plow straight ahead. You really need to muscle the car to get it sideways. However, once you're sideways, it's relatively easy to hold it there.

I've always been most impressed with Subarus, which are just a dream to drive on snow and ice. Particularly the STi, which is a real monster under those conditions. You can get the car sliding without having to throw it around. You can do it all with just throttle control and weight management. The extra compliance in the suspension (which kind of sucks in the dry) makes it transition very smoothly. The STi is the perfect winter beater in my book.

[johnmdanskin]

Did you try left-foot braking? That usually pays big dividends in FWD and AWD cars, especially on loose/slippy surfaces. Not exactly "power oversteer," but it's as close as you're going to get with a FWD platform.

I would be more impressed with Audis if they relied more on mechanical diffs rather that electronic stability control that cuts power and cooks the brakes to keep the cars tracking in slippy conditions. When I was in student cars last winter, I found modern Audis just want to plow straight ahead. You really need to muscle the car to get it sideways. However, once you're sideways, it's relatively easy to hold it there.

I've always been most impressed with Subarus, which are just a dream to drive on snow and ice. Particularly the STi, which is a real monster under those conditions. You can get the car sliding without having to throw it around. You can do it all with just throttle control and weight management. The extra compliance in the suspension (which kind of sucks in the dry) makes it transition very smoothly. The STi is the perfect winter beater in my book.

I did work on my left foot braking. Mechanically it is exactly the same as e-braking, but harder: stops the rear wheels, front wheels keep turning. Still, it's fun. You still can't make the car go with the brakes. Left foot brake can put you sideways, but without the rear wheels delivering power, you can't stay in the slide without slowing down.

The Audis I was in weren't using electronic blah blah blah. I didn't ride in any newish Audis. The coolest audis were the old quattro coupes. I wish I had some photos of them sliding up the hill sideways while pulling towards the straight with all 4 wheels. I tried and tried to make my car do this, but I just couldn't' get up enough speed to slide up the hill sideways. It was all I could do to get up the hill at all.

[Emre]

I did work on my left foot braking. Mechanically it is exactly the same as e-braking, but harder: stops the rear wheels, front wheels keep turning.You think so? I find I have much more finesse when left-foot braking compared to using the hand-brake (which is a pretty coarse instrument in my experience). I guess it also depends on technique to a large extent. I tend to feather the throttle and sort of tap the brakes very lightly and repeatedly. That's always worked well for me.


You still can't make the car go with the brakes. Left foot brake can put you sideways, but without the rear wheels delivering power, you can't stay in the slide without slowing down.No, of course not. That's why I'm saying it's "as close as you can get" to a power slide. Still, you can keep tapping the brakes as needed and kind of keep the slide going. We used to do that all the time in the Mazda3.


The Audis I was in weren't using electronic blah blah blah. I didn't ride in any newish Audis. The coolest audis were the old quattro coupes.The newer Audis are pretty sucky. I've never driven an older Quattro coupe. However, like the 325iX, older STi's, and all but the newest Evo's, they have mechanical diffs (planetary gear or viscous center diff; open front diff; and LSD in the rear). I much prefer that set-up on snow and ice. You can spin up all four wheels without trouble.

[bmwqc]

While on the subject of traction and all-wheel drive, yesterday I was following a new Mercedes S series 4-matic on a side street. The
guy went to park but purposely drove partially onto a soft snow bank on the side and guess what? He got stuck! The front wheels were spinning wildly but the rear wheels were not moving at all ! After I managed to squeeze through, all I saw in my mirror was this occasional cloud of snow being shot up from the front of the car.



You think so? I find I have much more finesse when left-foot braking compared to using the hand-brake (which is a pretty coarse instrument in my experience). I guess it also depends on technique to a large extent. I tend to feather the throttle and sort of tap the brakes very lightly and repeatedly. That's always worked well for me.

No, of course not. That's why I'm saying it's "as close as you can get" to a power slide. Still, you can keep tapping the brakes as needed and kind of keep the slide going. We used to do that all the time in the Mazda3.

The newer Audis are pretty sucky. I've never driven an older Quattro coupe. However, like the 325iX, older STi's, and all but the newest Evo's, they have mechanical diffs (planetary gear or viscous center diff; open front diff; and LSD in the rear). I much prefer that set-up on snow and ice. You can spin up all four wheels without trouble.

[johnmdanskin]

While on the subject of traction and all-wheel drive, yesterday I was following a new Mercedes S series 4-matic on a side street. The
guy went to park but purposely drove partially onto a soft snow bank on the side and guess what? He got stuck! The front wheels were spinning wildly but the rear wheels were not moving at all ! After I managed to squeeze through, all I saw in my mirror was this occasional cloud of snow being shot up from the front of the car.

newer audis were doing this too. The end with the least traction was spinning. At least in my X5 the other wheels will go if you really floor it, which is not the normally recommended procedure. You have to build up a lot of relative speed between the wheels before the brake thing kicks in.

actually, I got stuck at the hotel and my LSD wasn't working. I think I have to be moving or have -some- traction or something. Disappointing. Here I thought I had a hummer rescue vehicle...

[edit] ahh. 25% LSD applies 25% of the torque to the slower spinning wheel. If the faster wheel is spinning freely, 25% * 0 = 0. Oh well.

[SpeedTT]

La prochaine génération de Audi A4 va ressembler un peu plus au système X Drive de BMW. Ainsi le ratio avant/ arrière qui est actuellement de 60/40% passera à 40/60 ( donc réaction plus comme une propulsion) pour les Audi A4 de prochaine génération (2009)

[Turbo_Bimmer]

[edit] ahh. 25% LSD applies 25% of the torque to the slower spinning wheel. If the faster wheel is spinning freely, 25% * 0 = 0. Oh well.

That's why, in the old days before the electronic diffy, they tend to use a viscous coupling LSD instead of a clutchpack LSD for daily drivers. The viscous will lock when it senses a difference in speed between the two axles and get you out of trouble even if one wheel is in the air.

For track use, where all wheels are 'supposed' to stay on the ground, a clutchpack LSD will be more predictable.

[sebdavid]

newer audis were doing this too. The end with the least traction was spinning. At least in my X5 the other wheels will go if you really floor it, which is not the normally recommended procedure. You have to build up a lot of relative speed between the wheels before the brake thing kicks in.

actually, I got stuck at the hotel and my LSD wasn't working. I think I have to be moving or have -some- traction or something. Disappointing. Here I thought I had a hummer rescue vehicle...

[edit] ahh. 25% LSD applies 25% of the torque to the slower spinning wheel. If the faster wheel is spinning freely, 25% * 0 = 0. Oh well.

See John, that's what I was telling you (while helping push you out of your unfortunate position, along with some very impressed Frenchmen and my mom). The LSD acts as a torque multiplier. Multiply anything by zero and you'll get zero. I'm happy I got that right, you seemed to be worried that your LSD wasn't working at all for a while there...

When cars (both Audis and Subarus) were getting seriously stuck in snowbanks, it was frequent that they would spin only one wheel. I don't know how AWD really works, but it seemed to me to be like a "center LSD", meaning it was possible for one wheel only to be spinning. Needless to say, you had to be VERY stuck for that situation to happen. It did, though.

I've heard that the STi is a very nice car to drive in the snow, and that it is pretty easy to slide around. I had a lot more trouble with the standard WRX though, it didn't seem to like oversteering that much, and when I did get it going, applying power would pull the car out of the slide. Safe, efficient, but not all that fun unless you start manhandling the car into big lurid slides. I thought it was simply driver technique (or the lack thereof), but an instructor who drove the car made the same observation. Frank also told me ABS on Subarus is not a strong point. I wasn't using the brakes all that much, so that was a little less of an issue, however. I don't know if left-foot braking would have improved the situation, but one thing at a time, I didn't have enough time to master the basics enough that I could go on and try more advanced (or simply different) techniques.

[SpeedTT]

Sébastien
Les ancienne Audi comme la 4000 les Audi coupé, ont un système qui verrouille ou déverouille le différentiel central

[Gregster]

As in every other form of motorsport, having the right tires is critical. Without studded snows, driving hard on sheer ice is kind of frustrating. With good snows and an AWD turbo saloon, things get a bit more fun...



Yeah on Sat night I learn't that a high powered RWD car is useless on ice and hard to control.

[racerboy000]

Great Event
Great place for it
My wife took the course and got to practise alot of tow rope usage sorry john,
Had some great students and overall min time spent in the snow banks
It was humbling to have chris go out at lunch and put on a demo of how to drive at lunch