View Full Version : school track procedures..
I was just curious on one thing (i wanted to post this a while back, but forgot).
at BMWquebec and Boston driving schools I was thought how to give point bys. Both schools were also adamant on lapping with full windows down.
at the Trillium driving school it was kind of the opposite! Windows rolled up (or more than halfway up) and point bys given with blinkers.
Why is one better than the other? Why such different views? What's with the window issue? (funny thing is that trillium accepts convertibles without proper roll-bars).
Honestly for the point bys... I was more comfortable with the trillium way. Felt more "in-control" of the situation.
bmwqc
10-10-2005, 01:59 AM
at BMWquebec and Boston driving schools I was thought how to give point bys. Both schools were also adamant on lapping with full windows down.
at the Trillium driving school it was kind of the opposite! Windows rolled up (or more than halfway up) and point bys given with blinkers.
Why is one better than the other? Why such different views? What's with the window issue? (funny thing is that trillium accepts convertibles without proper roll-bars).
Honestly for the point bys... I was more comfortable with the trillium way. Felt more "in-control" of the situation.
The idea of having windows fully rolled down is because in the case of a serious accident, the doors can jam shut and the driver/passenger would have to be extricated through the window opening(s). The downside to this is when it rains, the water tends to pelt in and if you happen to have a leather interiior, it would mess up the seats and smell up the car.
I personally prefer using the hand to signal point-bys. Turn signals can fail unexpectely but the hand is more reliable. Anyways, since passing is only allowed on the straights, taking one hand off the steering wheel momentarily caused no problem w/ the stability of the car.
blacksheep
10-10-2005, 02:13 AM
personally I would feel safer with the "windows up + turn signals" because in a rollover situation I would prefer the windows closed. Maybe I need to buy some arm restraints, LOL
But then again, running windows UP in a car without A/C on a hot summer day would suck badly. Even with the windows down I come in all sweaty on hot days.
A/C sucks up too much power in my slow car, also it makes the engine run hotter.
The idea of having windows fully rolled down is because in the case of a serious accident, the doors can jam shut and the driver/passenger would have to be extricated through the window opening(s). The downside to this is when it rains, the water tends to pelt in and if you happen to have a leather interiior, it would mess up the seats and smell up the car.
I personally prefer using the hand to signal point-bys. Turn signals can fail unexpectely but the hand is more reliable. Anyways, since passing is only allowed on the straights, taking one hand off the steering wheel momentarily caused no problem w/ the stability of the car.
letting go of the steering wheel, even in straight line is debatable, you never know what might happen. Also... I've noticed that when the passing zone is short, people tend to give point bys way too early... resulting in driving with one hand the final part of the turn (like between corner 5 and 6 at tremblant).... If you hold the steering wheel properly, the "blink by" forces you to be straight(or very close to full straight), as it's otherwise impossible to activate the lever.
As for the window... if the car should roll.. the risks of losing a limb are far greater with windows down.... but again, if the window should break, you risk of having glass cut open your jugular... but then some have curtain airbags which lose effectivness with windows down... etc...
Not advocating one way or another. I felt comfortable enought both ways... just that the blink-by I felt more comfortable with. Both when giving it and receiving it. I'm sure these issues have been thought-out extensively... just like to hear the pros and cons.
blacksheep
10-10-2005, 11:20 AM
if the window should break, you risk of having glass cut open your jugular ...automotive windows are made with tempered glass that breaks into tiny little 4mm cubes; there's no way they can cut your jugular.
The windshield is also made with tempered glass + it has a layer of soft plastic in the middle to keep all the pieces together if it breaks
automotive windows are made with tempered glass that breaks into tiny little 4mm cubes; there's no way they can cut your jugular.
The windshield is also made with tempered glass + it has a layer of soft plastic in the middle to keep all the pieces together if it breaks
yeah.. you are absolutely right, I actually knew that, lol... was just trying to find something negative about having windows up.
This has been a HUGE debate in the BMW Club of Canada at the national level. There are two sides to the argument.
windows down + hand signals
This is pretty much the standard used by every club in North America with a handful of exceptions. Having windows all the way down helps corner workers pull people out of cars and put out interior fires. Also, it makes hand signals easier.
Hand signals are nice because:
a) You can clearly give ONE signal per car. If you have 3 cars behind you but only want 2 to pass, you point twice. With turn signals, the thing just starts flashing and it can be tough for the cars behind you to know which blinks are meant for which car.
b) The instructor can monitor your hand signals. It's very difficult for the instructor to hear the clicking or to see the lights on your dash. So they might not be aware of who you're signaling to pass on which side. Hand signals are much clearer for the instructor.
windows up + turn signals
The Trillium Chapter started doing this because a single police officer who attended a single school suggested that it would be safer. That officer felt having windows half-way up would keep limbs in the car during a rollover. This is pretty much the definition of "anecdotal evidence." That officer never provided any actual evidence that it would be safer (and it's hard to imagine the window not breaking in a rollover anyway). Yet, the Trillium Chapter accepted this and changed their policy...then started trying to bully other chapters into doing the same.
As for signals, the only positive is that students can keep both hands on the wheel. The negatives are as I described above. In practice, most students have complained to us that turn signals lead to confusion about when to pass. In fact, I have even seen some cars on the track with their signals on for half a lap (soccer mom style).
As for which is better or worse, that's debatable. Most clubs in North America find the standard procedure (windows down + hand signals) works best for all the reasons I mentioned above. The feeling is that it minimizes confusion surrounding passing. Since passing is pretty much the most dangerous part of track events, this is a good thing.
Further, removing your hand from the wheel to signal should not be a big deal. After all, you're only supposed to signal at the end of a corner, once the car is straightening out. And you're supposed to back off. In that context, removing one hand for a couple of seconds is hardly a safety issue. If you need to hang onto the wheel with both hands...you probably shouldn't be giving a point-by at that spot!
Emre
I also find the window down/hand signal procedure much safer. At higher speed, rain will not enter the cockpit anyway. For me, one car/one point by is the safest way. Flashers can be left blinking for laps if the cancelling system doesn't work properly. That can be dangerous. As far as I know, the only chapter/car club that uses flashers/window up is the Trillium chapter. They have many other "local" rules that they have tried to make a standard procedure. With no result. One other rule, was that if a car sounded like a racecar and looked like one, then it cannot be ran at driver school. Especially if the car is not plated or insured. BTW a license is not required on a private road, and insurance only covers the owner's car. But make sure your insurance does.
sharkmanbmw
10-10-2005, 05:51 PM
My experience pales next to you guys... but I always had windows down fully (halfway seems dangerous- in a crash you hit a half open piece of glass?!)
Open windows feels more "connected" with the car -louder and more realistic I guess.
I also found a few laps with the windows up will get hotter than hell!!
I was very biased toward the point-bys because that is the way I was thought at first. During the driver's meeting and the lesson, I was very perplex at the "blink-bys"... and thought they were awkward. I was uneasy with blinkers and windows rolled up...
that lasted 1/2 a lap. Everything was much smoother at mosport than at tremblant. Passing was smoother and clearer. Even in the beginner's group(where I was lapping almost everyone 2 3 times per session) I never found anyone with the soccer mom blinker.... I have to admit there was much more traffic at tremblant, so that may be part responsible for passing to be so slow and awkward.
Further, removing your hand from the wheel to signal should not be a big deal. After all, you're only supposed to signal at the end of a corner, once the car is straightening out. And you're supposed to back off. In that context, removing one hand for a couple of seconds is hardly a safety issue. If you need to hang onto the wheel with both hands...you probably shouldn't be giving a point-by at that spot!
Emre
the point-by "should" not be a big deal. That said I have seen LOT'S of mess ups at tremblant. Like point bys given just after the apex, still in mid turn. I also found blinkers more easy to spot when passing more than one car.
I think both solutions if used correctly are just as effective. I can think of 100 reason why a point by could be better... and then another 100 why a blink by would be better.
That officer never provided any actual evidence that it would be safer (and it's hard to imagine the window not breaking in a rollover anyway). Yet, the Trillium Chapter accepted this and changed their policy...
It's just as hard to imagine a crash bad enought to have you unconscious in the car with the windows still intact... and stewards not being able to break a window to extinguish a fire.
Open windows feels more "connected" with the car -louder and more realistic I guess.
that is the main reason why I prefer windows down. You have a better feel of what is going on and should there be something unusual, I feel more safe earing it with windows down.
heat was not an issue as I was lapping with AC on at mosport, lol
I also find the window down/hand signal procedure much safer. At higher speed, rain will not enter the cockpit anyway....
I think this depends on the car. I had LOTS of mud in my car after mecaglisse... and I only pulled window down when giving point bys and entering pits.
blacksheep
10-10-2005, 06:12 PM
hey Nano ... happy birthday!!! http://bmwquebec.ca/forum/images_pb/misc/birthday.gif
Thanks!! ;)
guess where most of the "gifts" are going? hehe...
Andrei
10-10-2005, 07:43 PM
One other rule, was that if a car sounded like a racecar and looked like one, then it cannot be ran at driver school. Especially if the car is not plated or insured.
Please don't misinterpret their rule. If the car has a license plate and is insured it is allowed. I saw some very mean sounding machines at Trillium events. They all had plates, though. Your car, Lee, is admissible even if you make it sound like it is not.
Trillium has made everything it could to ban dedicated track/race cars. That was part of the antagony between the old and the new chief-instructor. Most dedicated track cars are not plated or insured because they are just that: dedicated track cars. Having a plated car on a track has absolutely no use. Same with most car insurances. Every attendant at a club event is under the event's insurance for liability. If I run a non-insured car and ram into you, then your car insurance can do nothing against me. If I trash my dedicated track car, then I am on my own. Which is why many track junkies have built dedicated cars. Some insurance companies still cover damaged cars at educational events, but every year that number shrinks.
So, if a car looks like a track car, sounds like a track car and is most likely non-insured and non-plated, then it must be a track car and will be not accepted at Trillium's events. This is why so many instructors and track junkies do not go to Trillium's events anymore. As with many other home rules, they have pushed very hard to make them the norm, and failed.
Please don't misinterpret their rule. If the car has a license plate and is insured it is allowed. I saw some very mean sounding machines at Trillium events. They all had plates, though. Your car, Lee, is admissible even if you make it sound like it is not.Andrei, you have to remember that this "rule" was actually enforced for a season or two. They've only recently started making exceptions because everyone got so pissed off and made such a fuss that they had to back down. But if "some" Trillium people got their way, then ALL track cars would be banned. Luckily, those guys are being pushed out of the picture.
Emre
Andrei
10-10-2005, 10:06 PM
So, if a car looks like a track car, sounds like a track car and is most likely non-insured and non-plated, then it must be a track car and will be not accepted at Trillium's events.
IF the car is non-plated. Plenty of people tow their cars to Trillium events, especially instructors.
I did not say I agree with the policy. I think the policy stinks. But it is what it is. Don't make it look stricter than it is.
Maybe... the reason they are doing this (I doubt the reason is to be dicks) is that If the car is a dedicated track car... than it could easily be confused with a race car... or whatever, just the fact it's not a "street car" could give insurance companies leverage(in case of a claim) into pushing for some "competitive driving/racing" exclusion clause... so they are trying to protect everyone by keeping it as "street vehicles only" as possible... Just a guess.
Going back to the window issue... I find it extremely silly the insisted so much on running with windows up because of fear of losing a limb... and then allowed convertibles with absolutely stock / inadequate roll bars.
Andrei
10-10-2005, 10:14 PM
Andrei, you have to remember that this "rule" was actually enforced for a season or two. They've only recently started making exceptions because everyone got so pissed off and made such a fuss that they had to back down. But if "some" Trillium people got their way, then ALL track cars would be banned. Luckily, those guys are being pushed out of the picture.
Emre
The rules has been implemented for 2004 season. The only modification which was made before the first school of 2004 was that on Friday instructor/advanced day there would be 4 half hour sessions where track-only cars can drive and other instructors are welcome to join if they wished. This rule was in effect the whole time. I was not there in September (bummer, man) but I am pretty sure that you could only see track-only cars on Friday only. BMWCCA race excluded from that, of course.
I remember following this very closely before the first event as I was worried if they would get enough instructors. They actually did have enough. You can debate the relative quality but the turnout was there.
I think eventually they will come to their senses and allow track cars in instructor group and maybe in advanced. I don't see a reason to allow new drivers to drive track cars. If they are too afraid of banging up their street car they can get a rental. Cheaper than buying a track car.
Andrei
10-10-2005, 10:25 PM
Maybe... the reason they are doing this (I doubt the reason is to be dicks)
is that If the car is a dedicated track car... than it would could easily be confused with a race car. Or whatever, it is not a street car and therefore "could" give insurance companies leverage(in case of a claim) into pushing for the racing school crap, or some sort of competitive driving environment that would then fall into some exclusion clause... so they are trying to protect everyone by keeping it as "street vehicles only" as possible... Just a guess
Going back to the window issue... I find ti extremely silly the insisted so much on running with windows up because of fear of losing a limb... and then allowed convertibles with absolutely stock / inadequate roll bars.
Yes, the reason you described is the official "party" line. I can tell you later in private the real reason. A public forum is no place for that.
As for inconsistencies with Trillium safety procedures it is just in line with how they run their schools.
You should have been to the July Tremblant event with them. I have had 2 other events before where there were a total of 3 runs groups. One time I got unlucky and half of a day was lost to severe weather but I still got tons of track time and the other time with NER this May I almost got sick of driving. With trillium we somehow ended up driving the same amount as if there were 4 run groups. Stuff like waving the checker at start/finish, trying to split the track in two halves for some "excercises". A complete mess.
IF the car is non-plated. Plenty of people tow their cars to Trillium events, especially instructors.
I did not say I agree with the policy. I think the policy stinks. But it is what it is. Don't make it look stricter than it is.
Trillium will not accept non-plated/insured cars. Their event registration forms are the only ones I know that request an insurance policy number and license number. This policy of refusing non-plated/insured cars was based on fictional facts disguised as the "truth". It is only required to go on Trillium's forum and search in the archives from 2 years ago. Trillium lost a lot of very competent instructors. The chief-instructor who pushed this politic is now on its way out and is replaced by the "Joda" of instructors: Derek Hanson.
Maybe... the reason they are doing this (I doubt the reason is to be dicks) is that If the car is a dedicated track car... than it could easily be confused with a race car... or whatever, just the fact it's not a "street car" could give insurance companies leverage(in case of a claim) into pushing for some "competitive driving/racing" exclusion clause... so they are trying to protect everyone by keeping it as "street vehicles only" as possible... Just a guess.That's exactly what the Trilium Chapter states publically. The reality is that this is nonsense. We've checked with our motorsports insurer as well as regular insurers and it was made abundantly clear to us that this is, in fact, a total non-issue from the insurance point of view. The real reason has to do with some internal politics that are best left alone.
The good news is that Trillium has been quietly back-tracking and making all kinds of exceptions to their previous "hard line" approach. Hopefully, they'll soon do away with this idiocy altogether.
Going back to the window issue... I find it extremely silly the insisted so much on running with windows up because of fear of losing a limb... and then allowed convertibles with absolutely stock / inadequate roll bars.Don't try to look for rationality with respect to Trillium's driving school policies. A lot of the illogical things you see are imposed by certain strong personalities. It's like that in every club. My impression is that they have different "risk thresholds" than we do on certain issues.
In fairness, they have been getting better lately. Overall, they're a good bunch of guys and we all enjoy running with them. Next summer we even plan to collaborate on a Tremblant weekend. Things are improving!
Emre
In fairness, they have been getting better lately. Overall, they're a good bunch of guys and we all enjoy running with them. Next summer we even plan to collaborate on a Tremblant weekend. Things are improving!
Emre
I had loads of fun at mosport dayze and the instructors and personalities I had the chance to meet were great. I still felt safety was their number 1 concern and always was comfortable on the track with fellow students. From what I have seen, I am confident that any collaboration with them will turn out a huge success. With tremblant and mosport being such beautiful tracks... I'm very much looking forward to it :)
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