Who can make me a roll bar?

[Andre]

Looking for a 4pt roll bar for HPDE events that could later be added to should I wish to build a cage for club racing events.

~andre~

[Emre]

Looking for a 4pt roll bar for HPDE events that could later be added to should I wish to build a cage for club racing events.Good luck with that ;) I have yet to see a locally made rollbar or cage that's worth putting in my car. From what Lee tells me, GTA in St-Hubert does quality work...but I've never seen one of their cages in person. However, I have seen a lot of truly crappy jobs done by a number of local "race shops" (and I use that phrase VERY loosely!).

Personally, I've been shopping around for a LONG time. The only E30 cage that really impressed me was done by Mario at VSR (in Bow, NH). I was told prices start at $2500 USD for a weld-in 6-point...so it's quite expensive. VSR does offer a nice looking bolt-in 4-point rollbar (http://www.vsr1.com/e30_rollbar.htm) for a reasonable price. I've seen this installed in Jeff Smethers's and Suzin's E30 M3's. It was pretty impressive. The only thing I don't "get" is why the back-stays are bent.

Emre

[blacksheep]

a local guy here builds drag cars, I've never seen his work in person but he's ALWAYS super busy. Maybe I'll go visit him and report back

[Nano]

Looking for a 4pt roll bar for HPDE events that could later be added to should I wish to build a cage for club racing events.

~andre~

Oddly I've been following roll-bar threads recently (not that I would put one).

but these guys make some affordable bolt in cages. Prices and feedback are excellent.... but still doesn't beat a custom job as fitment.

http://www.kirkracing.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Catalog&CategoryID=229

[Lee]

Kirk and Autopower have nice rollbars. Weld-in or bolt-on. Perhaps you could buy a weld-in kit and have it installed locally. Most of the work will be already done.

[blacksheep]

but still doesn't beat a custom job as fitment.the trouble with REALLY nice custom cages, to make a one they usually start by removing all the windows then cutting the roof off you car :eek: then build the cage and then weld the roof back on when they're finished

not everybody is ready to see their beloved car be cut apart :)

[Andre]

I know of Kirk and Autopower. There is also Raven (very nice (and very pricey)) as well as CSC out towards Toronto. Around here there's TRAC as well as PMI.

I've lost all confidence in TRAC as I can no longer tell when they're telling me the truth or blowing smoke up my ass. I've decided to make it simple and just avoid them as much as possible.

I've heard good things about PMI at the same time, do I need a 3000 dollar cage to do HPDE events? Sure it wouldn't hurt but and I wouldn't think twice about it if I'm going to race the car. At the same time, the risks inherent to lapping and those in racing wheel to wheel are not the same. I think that if it's just for lapping, my money might be better spent elsewhere.

Are you happy with your cage in the '02 Lee? What make is it? And did you do anything to beef up the mounting points? (tie the floorplates into the rockers etc).

-andre-

[Emre]

I've lost all confidence in TRAC as I can no longer tell when they're telling me the truth or blowing smoke up my ass. I've decided to make it simple and just avoid them as much as possible.Join the club ;) FWIW, Trac doesn't even do their own cages...they farm them out to someone else but they won't tell you who. Probably so they can make sure to get a nice, fat cut.

I've seen a couple of CSC 4-point rollbars and the quality was very impressive. The cost was under $1000 CDN for parts, labor, and finishing. That wouldn't be a bad choice, I suppose. But you would, of course, need to get your car out to Ontario and leave it there for a while. I don't know about you, but that would be tough for me.

Emre

[Nano]

the trouble with REALLY nice custom cages, to make a one they usually start by removing all the windows then cutting the roof off you car :eek: then build the cage and then weld the roof back on when they're finished

not everybody is ready to see their beloved car be cut apart :)

Cage yes... roll bar no. It shouldn't require major ripping-apart except some plastic panels and the seats.

I thought bolt-ins cages where the same as cutom ones...

Until I've seen a custom 350z rollbar and compared it to a kirkracing rollbar. The kirkracing one was very nice... but the custom one had better clearances and was really hugging the countour of the interior...

I would NEVER install a full cage on a street driven modern car. Would be too dangerous, too much of a pain in the ass, and too much money to do it right. (cage + seats + harness + hans device + extinguisher + remove airbags + etc...)

[Emre]

I would NEVER install a full cage on a street driven modern car. Would be too dangerous, too much of a pain in the ass...It can also be a pain in the head (literally). I like my brains too much to scramble them against a metal rod.

Emre

[Andre]

I don't think hitting one's head with a 4pt is much of an issue. If I do manage it means that either my seat has been ripped out of it's mounting point or my seatbelt has let go... If that's the case then the roll bar is the least of my worries.

And Nano, I wouldn't do it in my daily driver either; too many compromises. Not to mention putting the baby seat in the back becomes a real PITA (JK). But this is for my track toy and maybe I'm getting a little older but there are a few turns on tracks here and there (turn 6 at Tremblant for example) where I say to myself, WOW! I'm really moving through here. If something bad should happen, (a tire break a bead, a control arm break,) then things are going to get ugly pretty quickly and there isn't an aweful lot I can do at that point. Having been been reduced to the state of "passenger", I want to put the odds on my side. Hence the reason for a cage or at the very least a roll bar.

Now, can someone please enlighten me on clearances?
All I ever hear about is that how good cages have very little clearance between them and the unibody. If one has a 6pt cage and it is attached at 6 points to the car, how is the fact that my main hoop or any other part of the cage is really close to the body going to help me? From an engineering standpoint, I don't see how this makes the cage any safer. I can't see how it makes it stiffer; is it all esthetics?

If I end up on my roof, the car is probably a write-off anyway; at that point, all I care about is my safety.

CSC may be an option as I have family in Toronto; the search continues...

~a~

[Nano]

I was talking about a full cage... not a rollbar.

A rollbar is a good idea on a street car that is tracked once in a while. A fullcage on a street driven car is not. (my 2cents).

As for clearance, there are alteast a couple of reasons I can think of. First, the tighter the clearance the less space the cage will "occupy". Space, comfort, visibility, etc... will be less compromised. Second, from an engineering structural point of view, the more the cage will hug the unibody, the less this one will "yield" and "deform" during a crash. A cage should compliment the natural eggshell structure of the unibody(on a streetcar), it would reduce the chances of structural colapse and intrusion in the vital area.

[Andrei]

First.
Don't even consider a 4 point belt system. Go for 6 point. The 4 point belts can allow you to go under them (submarine) in a frontal collision.

Second.
If you are considering a cage/half cage in a street plated car keep in mind that you must keep the stock belt/airbag system intact to be street legal. You can get in trouble with the law otherwise. And you must use the stock belt on the street which means that a full cage will be too close to your head if you are not wearing a helmet.
If you just trailer the car then it is not an issue. Just build as much cage as you can afford.

I myself am considering a halfcage and keeping the car more or less street legal. That way I can diagnose and repair it away from the track. I have seen too many cases where a shiny track-only car is rolled off the trailer only to discover some issue that could have been easily resolved if test driven on the street at perfectly legal pace.

[blacksheep]

yikes, a 4 point harness

Andrei is right, I can't find it now but there was a post on a Subaru forum of an STi driver who crashed head-on into a retaining wall. Driver and passenger were wearing 4-point harnesses and BOTH submarined under the harness to sustain severe injuries.

Dangerous stuff.

[Emre]

I don't think hitting one's head with a 4pt is much of an issue.
Don't even consider a 4 point belt system. Go for 6 point. The 4 point belts can allow you to go under them (submarine) in a frontal collision.I don't think b00b00 was talking about a 4-point harness. He was referring to a 4-point rollbar (vs. full 6-point cage).

Emre

[Andre]

Yes, 4pt roll-bar not harness. I would only consider a 5-6 pt harness and have not installed one thus far as I don't have a cage yet. I don't have an airbag so that is not an issue and my seat can work with a harness or a regular seatbelt so as long as I don't attract too much attention to myself on the street, I think I should be okay.

As far as tying the cage into the unibody goes, what are the does and don'ts?
I think that Lee or Emre mentionned that it doesn't do much good to have a cage fixed to the floor (even with reinforcements) and that if possible to tie it into the sills as they are much stronger. Anything else?

-andre-

[Emre]

I think that Lee or Emre mentionned that it doesn't do much good to have a cage fixed to the floor (even with reinforcements) and that if possible to tie it into the sills as they are much stronger.That's the main thing, really. Most pre-fab cages I've seen are just bolted/welded directly to the sheetmetal floor and rear wheel arch. Not very secure!

You'll want to box in the mounting points. Have the builder/installer weld the base of the main hoop not only to the floor but also to the lateral sills. As for the backstays, there's really no good way to do it if you want to keep the whole cage in the cabin (as you'd need to to in many classes to stay legal). The "best" way would be to extend the backstays to the rear shocktowers...but this would kick you into the modified class in most cases.

There's a nice set of articles and pics on one of the E30 M3 websites. Let me see if I can find the link.

Emre

[Andre]

Talked to the VSR and may order a cage from them. I will probably do the install myself.

Still waiting to hear back from Kirk on shipping. The big difference between the two apart from fit and finish is that VSR uses .095 1.75 DOM tubing and Kirk uses .120 1.75 DOM tubing. Both would be legal should I decide to use them as a basis to complete a cage, the VSR would be lighter.

In the meantime, I came across this thread in my research:
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13310

The clip of the roll-over is pretty telling.

~a~

[Andre]

Talked to Kirk Racing today and shipping for their Competition Bar would be in around 125.00 USD. We "shouldn't" have to pay duty on it as it's made in the USA (GST + PST probably). (Price is 350 USD, can be made as a weld-in or bolt-in)

And if we order 2 of them, they can ship them in the same box and we save on shipping (62.50 each).

If you're interested MightyDread (Mike), or anyone else for that matter, I'd be wanting to order one before Christmas.

Another possibility is to drive down to VSR's shop in New Hampshire and pick up a bar (575 USD). It's a 5 hour drive but if there's more than one it may make more sense to do it that way. Still waiting on shipping costs.

And finally, there also a few places in Toronto; Raven had a halfcage for 750.00 (Can) a while back and CSC could also make us something but I have yet to check with them.

Any interest out there?

-a-

[seb]

I build roll cage and roll bars in BMW's , I got a lot of pics of my work and got club racers running them.

Thanks

I'm glad to finally talk with the Quebec gang!!!!


Seb

www.pmiracing.com (http://www.pmiracing.com)..... now moving to a better place :D

[Andre]

Hi Sebastian,
Very interesting.

What would you charge for a 4pt cage?

I'm looking for a 4 pt cage to run in HPDE events that I could later turn into a 6 pt cage should I want to (with the idea of running in Prepared in BMW club races).


~andre~